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The Most Worthless Generation: An Essay on the State of American Culture – by Ty Harris…
On my last day of work prior to the 4th of July holiday weekend, an older gentleman whom I had spoken to the prior day about some routine business matters , called me up for the sole purpose of apologizing to me for having used the term “Son of a Bitch” in our conversation. Now I, being 36 years old, and having been exposed to appoximately 3.5 million oaths, curse words, and assorted vile imprecations in the course of watching television several hours a day since I was five, had not given it a second thought, and I was very surprised that he would think it important enough to make such a phone call. He hadn’t even used the term in a hurtful or depricating way when he said it, but rather just as a reference in casual conversation to something or other. I had been in no way offended by his use of the term, but he- having grown up in a much different time, when much better manners were commonly in use- had felt bad enough, that he had gone to the trouble of calling me just to explain that he was sorry for letting the word slip, and to let me know that he doesnt use such langage usually. That’s the kind of phone call you dont get every day, and it really made me think. It brought home to me in great clarity just how different things were in this country once-upon-a-time.
Later that evening, I was standing in line at Barnes and Noble waiting to check-out. In front of me was a family. A well-dressed man in his late twenties or early thirties, with his wife, and their young child- a cute little girl-about eight years old- in a dress. Directly behind me in line were three young men in their late teens or early twenties. They were all dressed more-or-less like Eminem, and were talking loudly and behaving boisterously- joking around. Every other word out of their mouth was “Fuck” or “Bitch”. I could see that the parents in front of me were obviously uncomfortable with this kind of language being used in front of their child, and I felt a boiling rage building up inside me as these cretins went on and on with their loud, foul language in front of the little girl. I gave the rowdies my best “Clint-Eastwood-right-before-he draws-his- six-shooters-and-guns-your-sorry-ass-down-in-the-street” stare, but they just ignored me and kept yucking it up, obviously not caring about anybody else around them.
Driving home from the book store, I was stuck in traffic at a light, and as I pondered how much I had mellowed since I was in MY late teens and early twenties ( when I would have waited outside the store for the above-mentioned miscreants and taught them a lesson in respect with my fists), on both sides of me were some late teens or early twenty-somethings. My car was literally shaking from the bass vibrations eminating from their stereos. I am positive that they were audible from a quarter-mile away. As I sat there with a growing headache, contemplating why it is that these ridiculous people were deriving enjoyment from playing loud thumping noises for no apparent reason ( did they want attention or what? ), traffic began to move. These obnoxious noise-polluters accelerated past me in their crappy honda civics with their buzzy little aftermarket mufflers, like a scene out of some low-budget remake of “The Fast and the Furious” ( easily the worst movie ever made ). As the bass gradually subsided, I looked to my right and walking down the sidewalk, were three teenagers with their pants sagging, six inches of their underwear showing, and their butt-cracks clearly visible. I caught the eyes of one of them, and shook my head ostentatiously. He laughed ostentatiously in return.
I finally got home, and with a box of Ritz crackers in hand, and a cold carbonated beverage at the ready, was preparing to eagerly delve into Newt Gingrich’s new historical novel on Pearl Harbor. That’s when the bass started coming from my neighbors- thumping through my walls. It was the Twenty-somethings upstairs acting in their usual disprespectful manner. I stepped out on to my balcony and the smell of pot was vaugely detectable. I went inside, turned on my Air Conditioner to drown out the thumping, and went to sleep. I was tired and it had been a long day.
The next day- it being the 4th of July, I engaged in the yearly, obligitory, ritual-viewing of “Saving Private Ryan.” The movie, and indeed the history that the movie depicts, really comes down to not much more than a bunch of teens and early twenty-somethings of a different generation, in a different time and place, making sacrifices that I cant even imagine- and in the process, becoming what Tom Brokaw called “The Greatest Generation”. And I couldn’t help but compare and contrast that generation with the bunch coming up now. How far we have fallen…
They say that if you put a frog in boiling water, it will jump out. But if you put the frog in the water and turn up the heat slowly, it will just sit there and cook to death as it’s environment changes gradually. Sudden threats are easier to deal with than insidious ones. You are forced to deal with imminent crises whether you want to or not. But gradually occuring crises can be put off and put off, and before you know it, the situation has gotten away from you. I think that the frog example above is a good analogy for what happened to our culture. Imagine your parents- or, if you are a bit younger, your grandparents- sitting in the den with the kids watching “I love Lucy” on their black and white television back in the 1950′s, and all of a sudden, on their screen were to pop-up a 50-cent video, with a bunch of half-dressed hoochie mamas gyrating suggestively, and a gangster-criminal cursing every other word, all-the-while advocating murder, drugs, gangs, race-hatred, and disrespect of women. What would have happened if the people of those times had gotten a sudden look at what their culture was to become? Bloody Riots is what would have happened. If the purveyors of this subversive and obscene filth had trotted out this garbage in the Eisenhower era, they all would have been dragged out of their hollywood studios by the good-and-rightly-outraged-American-people, and strung up from lamp-posts by their necks. And now? Well… we’ve seen so much already, that nothing is really shocking anymore. It happened so gradually over the years- a slow, but persistent lowering of standards, bit by bit, that we were able to avoid dealing with until it got away from us. We are numb.We shrug our shoulders, go home after work, close the door behind us, and try to create our own little oasis of sanity and decency in our own homes, even as we are surrounded by a culture that grows more crass and outrageous with each passing day. We accept as normal in our daily lives now, and as inevitable, that which is completely unnaceptable, and abnormal.
And I am not just talking about music videos and bad manners in public.Low standards and low expectations seem to pervade the whole fabric of society now. In terms of respect for others. In terms of standards of acheivement. In terms of personal responsibility.In terms of accountability for personal choices. In terms of expectations we place on others. In terms of the tone and tenor of public and personal discourse on any topic whatsoever. Everything is ruder than it used to be. Cruder than it used to be. Less intelligent. The high rhetoric and rational logic of yester-year has become the simplistic sound-bytes and talking points of today. Polite disagreement is impossible, and everybody who disagrees with me must be stupid or have sinister motives it seems. The standards for education in our culture have slipped so low that even the ability to critically reason, to rationally argue, or to objectively form opinions based on non-emotion-based facts seems all but absent.Public discourse is hateful, and shallow, and base. We have become a country of low standards, low expectations, low morals, and low intelligence. Our miserable failure of a public education sysytem churns out empty heads full of mush by the millions. If you have ever watched Jay Leno’s on-going segment called “Jaywalking”, you know that it graphically illustrates the apalling- and dangerous- ignorance of the current generation of young people. He will go to a college campus and ask students simple questions like ” Who wrote the Declaration of Independance” or “name any member of the Supreme Court”. Invariably these “scholars” are baffled by such questions. And they dont really care either. Their own ignorance doesnt bother them, and that’s truly the scary part. People like that are sheep who can be made to believe anything. Today’s college degree is not even the intellectual equivilant of a high-school diploma from the 1950′s. The standards and the culture have slid downhill to the point where the current group of late teens and early twenty-somethings coming into their own now are- in contrast to “the Greatest Generation”- well on their way to becoming “the Most Worthless Generation”.
How did it come to this? What happened in the intervening years to bring us as a nation to this point? What mistakes did we make as a society? Is it fair to judge so harshly of this generation? I have some thoughts on these matters, and I will share them with you. I will answer the last question first… Is it fair to judge so harshly of this generation? And furthermore, is it fair to even judge people AS a generation? I mean, we are all individuals, right? And we should all therefore be judged only AS individuals, correct? The kind of behaviors I gave as examples above do NOT accurately reflect ALL members of the generation in question, and so – you may ask- why should all be tarred with the same brush? I’ll answer that. In certain matters, we all are, and of course should be, judged as individuals. Our personal choices in our own lives, and in the lives of the people we interact with each day. But on another level, we all are part of a bigger whole too. The nation, the culture, and the world in which we live, is nothing more than the sum total of all of our choices lumped together- and not just the sum of the choices we make for our own lives, but also the sum of the choices that we make as to what we accept and expect from OTHERS.The culture results from not just what we do ourselves, but also from what we will tolerate, and what we won’t tolerate from our fellow man. What we are willing to fight for, and what we are willing to go along with . To an extent- whether we like it or not, we ARE all in this together, and the society that you walk out the door to every morning is, in the end, what we as a GROUP have made it. What behaviors and customs we accept as a nation, what standards and expectations we set as a people, and through these things what we ACHIEVE as a nation, are not a function of the individual, but of what we as a PEOPLE do, or fail to do. Europe was not liberated by one individual. The Interstate Highway System was not built by a single person. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin didnt get to the moon soley by their own abilities and choices. The greatest acheivements of Mankind, and the greatest aspirations of human culture aren’t possible through individuals acting alone. As individuals, we can make small ( and important ) choices, but a nation’s great challenges can only be accomplished through large groups working in conjunction who share a common set of standards, core beliefs, and expectations. All of their efforts and hopes must be joined together in a common goal. It is the work of a GENERATION that leaves behind a world and a nation changed for better or worse. And so it IS fair to judge a generation- as a group- based upon what they did together, what kind of culture they left behind together, and how they made their mark on humanity together. In the case of the current up-and-coming generation, it is fair to judge what they HOPE to do- together- in these areas and fair to look askance at what they are currently doing- together- in these areas, for surely the seeds of what they will ultimately be and do as a generation can be seen -even now- in what they aspire to, what they hope for, and what price they are willing to pay to acheive these things. Based on what I have seen so far, things arent looking too good. They ask little, they expect little, and they aspire to little.
I dont expect that these sentiments are going to be particularly well-recieved by the young hipsters who populate a large percent of the blogosphere, but before the outpouring of scorn and hatred begins, let me just say this- the way you distinguish between a true friend, and a fair weather friend is this- the fair weather friend will tell you what you want to hear. The true friend will tell you what you need to hear even when you dont want to hear it, and is willing to suffer as a result of saying it. I honestly do want the next generation to prove me wrong. I want the torch to be passed to a generation that will step up to their own responsibilities and their own challenges like the Greatest Generation did, and leave behind them a better world than the one their parents and grandparents gave them. But I think that if we are all honest here, we will see that things are not really trending that way. And so now is the time for brutal honesty,objective introspection, and candid commentary from folks like me who are willing to speak the truth, if the young people of today are going to avoid actually meriting the title of ”Most Worthless Generation” of Americans.
Before I offer some forward-looking suggestions as to how the late teens and early twenty-somethings of today can alter the terminal cultural trajectory they are on, I think a quick look BACKWARDS is in order- to see where we started out, to see just how far we have fallen, and to assess where we went wrong as a nation. In choosing a course forward, we may also want to look back at what challenges other generations have faced, and how they rose to those challenges to make their own mark on history and human culture. History is always relevant to the future. Those who fail to learn it’s lessons are doomed to repeat it. The prosperity and freedom we enjoy today didnt just happen by magic. Every young American should look around the world at the billions of starving , opressed masses still living in the dark-ages today and say to him or herself ” there, but for the Grace of God, go I. ” All we enjoy today came about by the efforts, sacrifices, and choices of generations past who wanted better than misery, poverty, and opression for their families, and so they stepped up to their own resonsibilities and duties in their own times to make us what we are today, and to give us what we have. What we have, for the most-part, we did not earn, which may explain why we are so willing to squander it with bad choices, low standards, and low aspirations. We are children standing on the shoulders of giants that came before us.
Where did the country go wrong? I think it all went bad in the sixties. Up until that time, we had a fairly decent culture. Well-mannered, well-ordered, and on the right track. Our national debt was less than what the federal government spends in a day now, taxes were low, government stayed out of your life for the most part. People relied on themseves and on their neighbors. The culture was less urban, and more rural by comparison. In the small Ohio town where my Dad grew up, the family farm was a real way of life still, for many, and it was a better way of life too. A lot of people left their doors unlocked at night. The Crips and Bloods certainly werent around, and if they ever HAD showed their faces in Byhalia Ohio, they wouldnt have lasted two seconds, because back then, gun ownership was considered a patriotic right and every family had one. People owned their own communities then, not the criminals, gangs, and drug-dealers. The outrageous crap that goes on in the streets in broad daylight every day now, would have been handled old-school, and in short-order by the communities of that time. People were more likely to know their neighbors than nowadays. Families actually sat down around a table to eat dinner together every night, and said grace before they ate. Most folks went to church on Sundays, and children were taught right from wrong. There were standards for behavior. When kids misbehaved, they didnt get a “time-out”- they got “the belt”. When I was a kid in school, Ritalin was not required to have quiet, attentive, respectful students in our classes. All it took was the threat of a visit to the principal’s office and an appointment with “Big Chief Hot Seat” ( the name we gave to the large wooden paddle used to punish ne’r-do-wells in Mrs. Blackburn’s class ). Kids were raised primarily by their Mothers, instead of by day-care providers, as they are now. That was possible, because the man of the house could go out and earn a living that would provide a decent standard of living for a single-earner family.The Mom could afford to stay home and raise the kids. Kids went to school and dressed properly, and behaved properly, and they learned a lot because they were held to high standards by teachers who cared about acheivement- not exuses. If you didnt live up to the standards, then you flunked. You werent passed, on the basis of social promotion and self-esteem. Students graduated high-school in those days being able to actually read and write the english language, and posessed actual mastery of actual mathematics, and a knowlege of real, non-propagandized American and World History. ( By comparison with the standards of 50 years ago, today’s high-school graduates are dumb as a box of rocks ). The Pledge of Allegiance and the Ten Commandments werent being dragged through the courts by the ACLU, and Amnesty International wasnt trying to get the prisoners at Nuremberg released like they are trying to get the Guantanamo Bay prisoners released now. The culture was more polite. People said ’excuse me’. Men opened doors for ladies. Abortion was unheard of. Young men and women got married and started families. And young women didnt often wonder who- of their 20 sex partners- was their babies’ daddy. America was a growing , prosperous nation. Economically sound, more-or-less culturally homogenous, and rooted in a morally upright culture – confident of itself, and rightly proud of itself as the proven bulwark of freedom in the world- the liberators of Europe, and of Asia,- the great Arsenal of Democracy. ( Whereas today, many young people have been brainwashed by liberal public educators to look at America as the source and cause of all that is WRONG in the world- that is, if they hold any opinions AT ALL about their own country… ) It was an era of enlightenment and of optimism. In only a few short years, JFK would audaciuosly commit America to the seemingly preposterous notion of sending Americans to walk on the moon. ( Who ever heard of such a thing!) Anything was possible in those days, and the liberators of Europe and the destroyers of Nazi Totalitarianism passed the torch to the next generation in good order, to those who would man the ramparts of freedom around the globe for decades to come, against communist totalitarianism- from the Demilitarized Zone, to the Berlin Wall, and from the triple-canopy jungles of South-East Asia to the wind-swept steppes of Afghanistan, the watchfires of freedom were tended. The next Generation of Americans stepped up to their responsibilities and kept us safe and free, and took the torch from the Greatest Generation. Or at least some of the next generation did. But not all of it. And that’s where things started to go wrong.
There was a cancer growing in the country too. Parts of the country maintained the standards and values of the prior generation, but a big part of the next generation turned their back on the old ways. The seeds of self-doubt, and the seeds of self-destruction that we are reaping today, were planted then, by the sixties Counter-culture. In that time, America split in two. Half the country held to conservative values and ideas. Patriotism and duty. The other half threw all that aside as rubbish, and started their own culture within the culture- in which the Most Worthless Generation was raised. I believe it’s how we came to be where we are today. The Counter-culture, and the drug-smoking hippies did this. But in spite of that fact, THEY do not merit the title of Most Worthless Generation, because while they may have led our nation down the wrong path, objectively speaking, you have to give them credit for having a goal, and for being commited to it. They get an “F” for judgement, but an “A” for effort. They wanted to re-make the nation, and the world- and they did so. They turned their back on conservative values, and they did so with a veangance. The flag and the soldiers who gave them their rights- to do the things they did and say the things they said- were reviled and- literally-spat upon. The church was left behind. The conventional family unit, and the way families had been raised since time-out-of-memory were cast aside as obsolete. Women’s careers were more important than their children. Total abdication of morality, standards, and responsibility were the marching orders of half a generation, and now we reap the results. The rude , crass, disrespectful culture of today is what you get when the parents don’t pass along the moral values of the previous generation. The Counter-culture wanted freedom without responsibility, and so we got abortion-on- demand, and sexual liberation. But along the way, somebody forgot that those tens of millions of unwanted, cast-aside, un-born babies were neccesary to continue to build the country and sustain our way of life. Now, we are a shrinking culture that can only replace it’s old and dying through illegal immigration and an all-out invasion by another country and culture. The nuclear family is gone, and the women are all now “liberated” from the home, and from raising children, but while they are out there working, nobody is raising or teaching the kids (the kids that still DO manage to be born in spite our busy schedules)- except television, day-care, and a public school system that is busily instilling it’s own worldview and values. The Counter-culture wanted to change the nation on a fundamental level, and to do that required changing the core values and beliefs held by it’s populace. Control and domination of the public education system was absolutely critical, if the hippies were going to undermine the prior generation’s values and substitute their own in the next generation. The abdication of parental guidance, and the infiltration of educational institutions were essential components of their aspirations, and they acheived total sucess on both fronts. The result is what we see before us now.
The economic underpinings of our nation are also a wreck now, thanks to the Counter-culture. And that will bear greatly on the hopes and aspirations of the Most Worthless Generation, just as their lack of moral upbringing will. The hippies ushered in the era of Big Government where our every need was to be provided for by beaurocrats. The Great Society it was called- but it didnt turn out so great. Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare alone, now consume most of the federal budget, and are totally insolvent and unable to meet their future obligations without financial and societal upheavals on a scale heretofore unseen. The national debt is so big, that instead of Apollo Programs and Manhattan Projects, the next few generations will be be using the fruits of their labors to pay off interest on the bill that was run-up to pay for the disasterous liberal social-engineering experiments of the welfare state. The legacy of the unfunded ponzi-scheme entitlement programs that the hippies left us will be wrecking our nations’ economy long after they have shuffled off this mortal coil to meet whatever God their faith in Darwin allows them to hope to meet. To make matters even worse, the unfunded entitlements the hippies left us, are PAID FOR by debt that is held by the Chinese Communists- who can now bring our economy to it’s knees anytime they please by selling off their positions in American treasury notes.
But getting back to how we arrived at this current generation’s plight…. The greatest acheivement and undertaking of the hippie generation was what they did to the education system. We spend more on education per student than any country in the world, but somehow the liberal establishment which has taken over the education system wholesale ( 90+% of college professors self-identify as liberal ), manages to churn out students that are HISTORICALLY ignorant of basic reading, writing, mathematics, and history. Worse, they are utterly incapable of critical thought or rational argument. Right and Wrong, Fact and Fiction are equivilants now. Everything is relative, and it’s not our place to judge or criticize. Patriotism has been replaced with guilt at what we have as Americans, and kids are taught that America is the great antagonist of the poor, opressed peoples of the world, instead of their greatest hope. Fighting for what is right is not brave, it’s imperialistic. And according to the new moral relativism, we must accept other cultures as our moral equals, even when those cultures have as their foundation the denial of all human liberty. Our enemies only hate us because we deserve to be hated. Optimism and National pride is now replaced with guilt, and a reluctance to judge or to act. The Most Worthless Generation is now expected to meekly take our nation’s place in the world- not as liberators, or as a Shining City on a Hill- but as a guilt-ridden paper tiger who frets in a corner of it’s cage- unsure of itself, while dangers gather, our enemies move against us, the darkness of islamic fascism spreads, and the jihadists plot our destruction. Evil in our time is to go unchallenged, even as Naziism and Communusm was stood-up-to by our grandparents and parents. The Most Worthless Generation just hopes that if we will leave them alone, maybe they will like us. Truly, we are now innocents abroad.
On the homefront-as a nation and a culture, we are free-er and less inhibited in our manners, customs, and in what we accept in others as appropriate, but is anybody really happier with the result? Is the neighborhood that your kids will grow up in better than the one your grandparents grew up in? Does anybody want to argue that the rude, crude society we have now is BETTER than it was before? Is Ozzie Osbourne really better than Ozzie and Harriet? Are we happier as a people? Are we better off? Oh sure, we have more material goods- but is our way of life more fulfilling? Sundays are about NFL football now, instead of church and after-church fellowship. The resolution on my HDTV is pretty damned impressive, but I’d trade it in a heartbeat to be 12 years old again- picking apples and shucking corn on a glorious summer afternoon, in preparation for dinner with a few neighbors after church- back in rural Ohio… fields as far as the eye could see.
At any rate, a large amount of the blame for what the current generation coming-up is, and is becoming, lies with their own parents, and with the society that these kids grew up in. I mean, when a nation abandons so many good and great things, in the space of such a short time, is it any wonder that the kids are going to be affected adversely by that? The Hippie Generation really screwed up our country, and their offspring looks well-positioned to screw it up even worse. But just the same, people do surprise you sometimes. Regardless of where we came from, we do all have a choice. And sometimes, personal choice and a desire for something better, can change the course of a life, and maybe even the course of a generation. Sometimes people who have every reason to fail, don’t. While it’s entirely possible that the Most Worthless Generation may take the path they are expected to take, and continue the Hippie Generation’s slouch to mediocrity- onward and downward into out-and-out depravity, it’s also possible that the cynicism I see in a lot of young people will manifest itself in a desire to have a culture different and better than the one they unhappily find themselves in. It’s obvious that a lot of young people are unhappy with the way things are. They find their daily lives tiring, and spiritually unfulfilling. They feel like something is missing, but they dont really know what to do about it. Those feelings may ultimately bring us full-circle as a nation. From a decent, morally-upright people who walked away from their roots- to the remnants of a dying culture who looked around at the mess they were living in, and decided that they wanted something better for their own kids- and chose to go back the old ways and customs that their grandparents knew in the beginning. We’ll see.
Offering criticism and complaints without offering suggestions for a better alternative course of action is cheap and easy, so I will take the next step as well, and say what I think the Most Worthless Generation could DO- going forward- to change the path they are on. So…what would I suggest for the current group of teens and twenty-somethings to make their lives and their communities better and more fulfilling? How could the next generation take the shitburger that they’ve been handed by their parents and make fillet mignon out of it? What choices could they make that would reverse the trend they are currently on as a culture and as a nation?
Well, for one thing- they- and all of us- need to quit being so self- absorbed. We live in a world of 6 billion people. You aren’t all that important. Get over yourself. If I was living in North Korea and my family was dying of starvation while a fat, lazy, selfish generation of Americans stands by and watches it happen, because we lack the stomach to fight, I would say, ”Screw you AND your I-pod, jack!” The ”Shining City on a Hill” looks more like a “Fading Hope Dissapearing in the Night”to some who are counting on us. We could cure cancer, cure AIDSs, feed the entire continent of Africa, AND liberate the entire world for Democracy with the insane amounts of money we spend funding entitlements like Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare- which all could have been fully funded by the beneficiaries of these programs if the money had been properly set-aside, and safegaurded ( perhaps in Al Gore’s famous “Lock-Box” of SNL fame ) instead of squandered on the Great Society. This Generation’s failure to DEMAND fundamental entitlement reform means that all of the fruits of the Most Worthless Generation’s labors will go to nothing more than paying off debts and unfunded obligations instead of doing something good and great in the world. Demand better! Care enough about the poor and opressed peoples of the world to put your own house in order, so you can do the kinds of things that America was put on this earth to do.
Try thinking of yourself as a part of the whole. Consider not so much what you can take and have, but rather what responsibilities you have to others, and to the efforts and sacrifices made by generations past who gave you everything you have. Stop focusing on the aquisition of consumer goods, and focus on making yourself spiriually and intellectually wealthy. Ask yourelf some questions that are more important than the things you usually fill your mind up with- what is the state of your family? What hopes do you have for your own children? What steps are you taking to make those hopes a reality? Are you spiritually right? What do you actually KNOW about the forces and events that shape your life and the times you live in? What are you a part of that is bigger than yourself? Learn something. Turn off the TV and read a book. Gain some facts. Invest in the aquisition of some knowledge. Why not learn something profound and interesting about the human condition by reading Shakespeare or Emerson, instead of playing Madden 2007 with your buddies today? Maybe you will form an intelligent worldview, and have some cogent thoughts about life, the world, and your place in it. Read history- learn some facts about the GOOD things your country has done, and maybe through that aquisition of knowledge, you will regain some confidence, some optimism, and some patriotism. Start with William Shirer’s “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”. If you ask me, it’s the best book ever written. It should give you a more realistic perspective about America’s place in the world, and about your own generation’s responsibility to stand up to the enemies of freedom in your own time. Think about how the Greatest Generation responded to the attack on Pearl Harbor- even with their much smaller population and Gross National Product. Now compare that with what THIS generation has done in response to the attack on the twin towers. Pathetic isnt it? 150,000 troops for Iraq? And we cant even sustain national support for THEM? Previous generations fought the Nazis and the Communists. What is your generation’s contribution to freedom? To save the planet from Global Warming? Will your great sacrifice be to drive a Prius? When your grandparents went to war, they did it old-school. They lost more men ( 23, 019 Killed in Action ) just in the Normandy campaign, than we have lost in Iraq and Afghanistan combined, and gave up 407,300 American lives total in world War II. And yet Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are falling over each other to see who can declare defeat the quickest, so we can retreat from our towell-head enemies in the face of the slightly bloody nose they have given us. Even with their vastly smaller population and GDP, the Greatest Generation assembled the following forces to go take some names and kick some ass- Army: 3.4 million, Navy: 4.1 Million, Marine Corps:669,000, Coast Gaurd:241,000. Let me reiterate- the US Coast Gaurd in World War II was signifigantly larger than our entire combat troop commitment to the Iraq War. Kind of sad isnt it? I wonder what the Greatest Generation thinks of the Most Worthless Generation’s “troop surge”. Dont’ believe the defeatists who say we cant win in Iraq, or win the War on Terror. It’s only a question of commitment.
The biggest lesson that the Most Worthless Generation needs to learn is that there is such a thing as objective truth, and that right and wrong are real things. Not every culture and value system is equivalant. Remember- most folks in this world would trade everything they own for an American passport- right now, today. You have no reason to be ashamed of your country’s legacy to this world. Set aside the hippie zen of moral relativism and grow some testicals. Muslim theocracy is antithesis to all possible aspirations and progress that humanity could ever have. Un-intentional collateral damage is not the moral equivalant of islamic suicide-bombers who walk into elementary schools and crowded marketplaces to intentionally murder innocent women and children. Wake up and see evil for what it is. Fight it like your grandparents did- with everything you have.
Embrace higher standards for yourselves, and demand higher standards of your freinds and neighbors. The rudeness, the crudesness, the disrespect, the filth and vulgarity- this is the cesspool you will be raising your own kids in. Make your neighborhood a better place, and instead of quietly going along with what you know is wrong, stand up and be counted. Get in somebody’s face and tell them you demand better behavior from them.
Start insisting on fiscal and budgetary sanity from your elected leaders. Be willing to entertain debate about whether we should spend money on this thing or that other thing- but do NOT tolerate any talk of spending money you dont have and passing the debt on to future generations. If you want it, then pay for it with higher taxes, or by cutting waste elsewhere. Demand that all entitlements be funded by the beneficiaries of those programs- not paid for by you and by your debt-saddled children. Demand reform! Bush may not be able to construct a sentence correctly, but apparently, he can add. The best thing ever put forward by his administration was his proposal to allow young Americans to invest part of their own retirement savings. It’s the only way Social Security can ever be solvent at this point, so let’s all get behind doing what needs to be done.
Demand that your elected leaders take steps to re-make what America once was- to reclaim your standards of living. It’s one thing to argue that a woman should be able to choose to leave the home and pursue a career. It’s quite another when a woman HAS to leave the home, because the family can no longer survive on single-earner income.We NEED to reverse three economic mega-trends that have contributed greatly to the loss of our American way-of-life over the last couple of decades. They are…1) the unchecked influx of 10′s of millions of illegal aliens into the country who are willing to work for signifigantly less than what Americans make, 2.) the outsourcing of our industrial production base to foreign countries where the workers make much less money, and 3.), the trade imbalance that simultaneously wrecks our own nation’s budget, while it enriches our nation’s enemies. The various free-trade agreements that Democrat and Republican administrations alike have negotiated in recent years are probably the worst mistake in the history the Republic. Take back your own country for God’s sake! Secure the borders, bring our jobs back home, and make it possible again for a man to support his family.
Re-embrace the goodness that was- and still is- the foundation of America’s greatness. Demand a way of life that is more moral, more respectful,and more spiritually fulfilling. Insist that the things your kids are exposed to are appropriate. Teach them right from wrong. Do not tolerate filth from the television, or from the culture in general, and make that stick with the power you have as both a voter, and as a consumer. Take back your streets from the criminals and the gangsters. Demand harsher sentences for these people- life sentences if need be. Build as many jails as you have to. Lay down a clear boundary as to what you will tolerate from people. Work in conjunction with local law enforcement to make your neighborhoods safer, happier places. The police are not the enemy. They are there to protect and serve you, but they can’t be everywhere at once. Their power to do good is exponentially multiplied when the citizens act as their eyes and ears in the community.
Use your economic and military might to spread political freedom and economic opportunity around the world. The kids of India, Asia, the Middle-east and Africa deserve every chance to have a good life, and to know what freedom is , just as your own kids do. Be willing to pay the price, and to lay down the sacrifice of both blood and treasure for the spread of Freedom and Democracy in this world. Someday, the world may be united in Peace and Freedom, and Humanity’s efforts and treasure can all be devoted to seeing what humanity is ULTIMATELY capable of- the end of all disease and want? , interstellar exploration?, species-changing breakthroughs in human longevity? Who knows what is possible? But we wont get to that place until we as a species, can work out a few common points of agreement regarding human rights, and regarding the personal and political freedoms that are the right of every living soul on the globe. To get to that point is going to involve more conflict. It’s going to involve more war. Just as prior generations had to pay a price to carry the torch of freedom to the fields of Normandy, and to the archipeligos of the south Pacific, you have your own torch to bear and enemies to face.
The “Enemy Without” is islamic fundamentalism. They have thrown down the gauntlet, and it’s yours to pick up, or to leave laying there on the blood-stained streets of lower Manhattan. It’s your choice. I know that your hippie parents brought you up in the infantile notion that “peace” was something you could achieve by the simple abdication of responsibility, and if , by peace, you mean the mere abscence of resistance to evil, then that’s true. But if peace actually refers to some kind of ideal state that includes personal and political freedom, then a willingness to fight for it is required. That’s cold , hard truth, and you cant avoid it with clever slogans and the protest signs you and your buddies whipped up in your dorm rooms. Nothing worth having in this life is free.
And a final word of advice to the Most Worthless Generation-don’t forget the Enemy Within either- the subversives, the liberal educators, and the hippie brainwashers who turned your country’s educational system into the miserable failure it is today. Take back your schools. It’s YOUR money that is paying for YOUR child’s education. Don’t accept failure and mediocrity anymore. Don’t accept secular-progressive brainwashing as a substitute for actual learning. Don’t accept social promotion and self-esteem building as substitutes for real standards. Flush the Ritalin, and bring back Corporal punishment. Don’t accept schools where kids graduate from high-school not being able to read and write. Don’t accept schools where the children run things, and the teachers fear for their own safety. Demand school-choice for parents. Demand accountability for results. Demand that patriotism take it’s rightful place in schools again, and send the anti-American subversives like Ward Churchill back to the hippie communes where they belong- not brainwashing your kids with your own tax dollars. Demand DIRECT control over your tax dollars as it relates to your child’s education. There is only one solution to reforming the current mess, and that’s vouchers. It’s not as sinister an idea as the Teacher’s Unions and the Democrats make it out to be. The government taxes everybody, allocates a certain sum for education, and sends that money back to the parents in the form of a voucher that they can spend on ANY school they choose that meets their needs and lives up to their standards. Vouchers gaurantee the same equality of opportunity for the poor, black kids of inner-city Washington D.C., as is enjoyed by the children of the rich white folks living out in the Arlington suburbs, who can afford to sent their kids to vastly superior private schools. Acess to excellence in education for all- regardless of race or economic origin should be the greatest aspiration of your generation. It’s acheivable, through market-based reforms, and it will plant the seeds for your own children’s opportunities.
In closing, I just have one small request for all of you members of the Most Worthless Generation. Regardless of whether or not you aspire to change the culture or to create a better place for you and your children to live in- regardless of that- on behalf of all of the rest of us who have to put up with you on a daily basis, could you at least make a token effort to start holding yourselves to some minimum standards of behavior, and try to show just a tiny little bit of respect for others? Could you do us that small favor at least? Because I have to say- your standards, and your manners, have slipped so far that a lot of the time, you people are genuinely insufferable. If you continue on the path you are on, you’ll never amount to anything… Dont’ say I didn’t tell you so.
I know I am going to get hammered for this essay by the Most Worthlesss Generation, and I am prepared to take my beating. That’s OK. My skin is tough. It was worth it if even one person of that generation takes anything I have said to heart, and tries to make a better life for themselves, and for their own children, by using any of my suggestions. Good luck, and God Bless.
I can see the open racism and hatred in your posts. “Towell-heads”, yeah right. It’s spelt “towel”, by the way.
You seem to know very little about civilizations other than your own, which explains your Euro-centric, colonialist views.
And yes, our generation has no use for the lies handed down to us. Religion is nonsense and conservatives hold us back from progress.
The colonial project in Iraq is doomed, the colonial project in Afghanistan is doomed, the Iranian regime (despite its ridiculous repressive policies) will not fall to Western pressure, and the US is fast losing its only ally in the region, Pakistan.
Don’t you see that old colonial structure falling apart?
And your response to all this is to insist on more backward thinking, more militarism, more young people (on both sides) dying for these lies…
As for Ward Churchill, have you even read him? Or are you just following the ignorant, hysterical conservative propaganda against his work?
Crimson East-
Thanks for stopping by, and thanks for the comments. Regarding your claim of racism, let me just say that I believe you are confusing my disdain for an inferior medival culture, and my contempt for an opressive, hateful religion that is completely incompatible with Democracy and Freedom- with race-hatred. Culture, Race, and Religion are three seperate things. Please dont try and conflate them. If the towel-heads ( thanks for the spelling correction ) were blonde-haired, blue-eyed caucasians trying to keep a billion people in the dark ages, and going around intentionally murdering innocent men, women, and children for the sake of their stupid religion, I would still despise them. Therefore, racism does not apply. I am an equal- opportunity hater of assholes of all colors, races, and creeds. ( By the way, the persons involved in every single example I cited of unnacaptable personal behavior at the beginning of my essay were white- not that it matters to me. )
As far as my views being euro-centric and colonialist- well… I tend to base my opinions of cultures on objective facts. I mean, on the one hand, you have your free, happy, prosperous people in the world living primarily in modern, european-influenced democracies- Great Britain, The United States ( a former British colony ), Japan, France, Germany, Canada, Australia,etc… and then you have your miserable, starving, un-happy, opressed people living in muslim theocracies, in military dictatorships, and in assorted communist shit-holes like Iran, Syria, North Korea,Cuba, half the continent of Africa, etc… And if you look at the in-between countries who are making progress and improving, you see countries who are embracing freedom, capitalism, and Democracy. India comes to mind. They are lifting themselves up ( another former British Colony as I recall ), and what progress China has made, is only possible through trade with the U.S., and through their own market-based reforms.( We can only hope that political freedom will follow economic freedom in China, which it may or may not). Objective reality is what it is. Facts are facts. Our culture is superior by any reasonable measuring stick, and has a chance to remain so, if the Most Worthless Generation doesnt throw it all away. The truth is hard sometimes. If you show me another socio-economic system where people are free-er, happier, and more prosperous, I will embrace it. Until then, euro-centric is just another term for objectivist.
As far as this colonialist business goes, do you really believe we want that, or are you just saying that because it sounds good at student protests? If we could get a stable, freely-elected democracy firmly in control of Iraq that is capable of holding Iran at bay, and can keep a boot on the throat of Al Quaeda, the baathist insurgents, and the Shia militias, we would leave tomorrow. We WANT to leave. And we WILL leave soon enough. So much for “colonialism”. We are just trying to give those poor people a chance at having a good life and a free society. What is “colonial” about that? Neither do we want to “colonize” Afghanistan. What benefit could we possibly derive from “colonizing” what has to be the most god-forsaken, worthless peice of ground on the entire planet? If one country ever had a legitimate reason to invade another, it was the reason the US had for invading Afghanistan. Did you miss September 11nth? Were we not attacked? Do we not have a right to hunt down every last Taliban and AlQueada anywhere in the world they choose to hide?
As far as colonial structures falling apart, If you mean that the three different peoples that were lumped together to form Iraq would have been better off as seperate countries, well, maybe you are right. Joe Biden has the idea that we should still split it up that way. Maybe he is right, but what does that have to do with the rightness or wrongness of us invading the country? I would have preferred Iran, but the main thing is that we have engaged the enemy. Al Queada is there. Jihadists are coming to fight us there from all over the world, and we are burying them there. Better there than in lower manhattan. The comedian Dennis Miller refers to Iraq as a “psychotic salt-lick”. I like the analogy. Besides, would you be happier if Sadaam were still in power? Putting his political opponents through meat grinders and commiting Genocide against his own people with chemical weapons? Do you long for the good ol’ days when Uday and Qusay would pull up to elementary schools and pick out the 11 year old girl of their choice? Are you claiming that a military dictatorship is better than a freely elected parliament? What exactly are you advocating for?
As for Militarism- Two quotes for you…
“Only the dead have seen the end of War”
” Paradise lies under the shadow of Swords”
Without looking it up, the former – I think- is Plato. The latter is the Koran, I think.
Evil exists. Period. Your only choice is to join it, fight it or surrender to it. Those are your options. All you can do is choose sides. Nothing you say or do can change that.The Greatest Generation had Hitler. We have Bin Laden and Kim Jong Il. I suppose we could have left the jews to burn in the ovens, and the rest of the world to be enslaved by the Nazis and had “peace”. But we chose war. It was a good choice. We could have let the communists take over the world, but we fought them- and we had some victories ( the Berlin Wall ), Some losses ( Vietnam ), and even a quadruple-overtime that is yet to be decided ( Korea ). Young men died, and the tree of liberty was refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots.
The results of our “militarism” havent been half-bad if you ask me, and two of our “colonial projects”- Germany and Japan- are wealthy, free and happy peoples now that we “imposed” freedom and democracy on them. If we fail in Iraq and Afgahnistan, it will only be because of our lack of commitment, and because of people like you undercutting the war effort- not because our cause is unjust. And our failure will not make the world a better place. Our victory would. So why dont you choose sides and get with the good guys? The home-team could use your support.
As for Ward Churchill, I have heard enough of his comments to know that there is no POINT in reading any further. If a man attempts to defend the indefensible, what would be the point of looking further into his clearly deranged mind? What could I hope to find in insanity and treason that is of value? He openly advocates the total destruction of the United States and he not only sympathizes with the Islamic murderers of 9-11, he actually thinks that the innocent people who went to work one morning and never came home to their families DESERVED WHAT THEY GOT. Are you claiming that I need to learn more about why he believes these things? No, I havent read how he rationalizes or justifies his stupid, cruel, and hateful comments. I couldnt care less. He’s the biggest asshole that ever walked the face of the earth as far as I am conscerned, and I’m glad he got fired. The shame and tragedy is that it took so long.
As far as conservatives holding you back from progress, may I just point out that in many, many ways conservatives are the most “progressive” people around these days, and the so-called “progressives” are in many cases the actual OBSTRUCTORS of societal progress. I’ll just cite a few examples:
Education- Liberals want to stick with the status quo of our miserable, failed public school system and they fight reform and accountability at every turn. Conservatives on the other hand, want Vouchers, Parental Choice, Accountability, Market-based Competition, and Equal Opportunity for the poor minorities suffering in failed innner-city schools ( who’s racist now? We want to help these people while your side keeps them down.), so they can take their own tax dollars and choose excellence in education just like the rich white folks can. Liberals only obstruct progress.
Housing and Urban Development- The libs gave us the drug and gang infested public housing projects. Conservatives stopped building them, and instead subsidized private home ownership for low income and first-time home buyers. Urban blight was replaced with personal pride and ownership.
Welfare- The libs gave us welfare for life. Conservatives pushed people off the welfare rolls and back into the workplace- giving people jobs instead of a hand-out. Millions of family’s lives have been improved.
Energy- Conservatives want to make us energy-independant, and give us low gas prices by using our own resources and building our infrastructure. The Libs obstruct every attempt to drill for oil, to build nuclear power plants, or to build refineries. Conservatives try to solve the problem, and Liberals obstruct, and give us high energy prices while making us dependant on countries that dont have our best interests at heart.
Entitlements- Libs gave us the unfunded, insolvent Ponzi-scheme called Social-Security. Conservatives want to reform the system for the sake of Old and Young alike, to make it financially sound again- by allowing people to invest their own retirement money and giving them- and the system- a better rate of return. Again, conservatives push for reform and for progress while libs obstruct and cling to old, failed socialist thinking despite the objective results of their own mistaken actions right before their eyes.
Law Enforcement and Homeland Security- Conservatives fight for more jails, stiffer laws, and for harsher sentences to take back the streets from the criminals and the drug-dealers. Libs fight to legalize drugs and to let the criminals off. Conservatives want to spy on our enemies and put enemy combatants in Guantanamo bay. Libs expose our surveilance programs in the New York Times, and sue to try and get the Guantanamo prisoners released. Conservatives try to make our communities, and our country safer. I call that progress. libs only obstruct progress.
Immigration- Conservatives want to secure our borders and save our culture. Libs fight us at every turn, and allow our nation to be invaded, our communities turned into gang and drug infested war-zones, and allow all of our social services, our hospitals, our jails, and our schools to be overwhelmed and overrun by illegal aliens who have no right to be here. Again, conservatives fighting to make our country better and safer, and libs obstructing progress towards that goal.
I could go on and on about how conservatives fight for reform, for progress, for better schools, for safer communities, for secure borders, for more opportunities for minorities and the disadvantaged, for better homeland security, and for a better retirement for our seniors, but suffice it to say, conservatives are now the revolutionary movement of PROGRESS. The libs are just the reactionary defenders of tired, old, failed socialist ideology, which was all jargon and no results. from day one.
Would you like to retract your statements about conservatives obstructing your progress?
Hopefully I have now enlightened you as to the error of your ways. No thanks is neccesary.
Oh- and regarding religion- some of it is crap. Some of it isnt. If you are talking about muslim theocracy that claims the right to kill anybody who doesnt choose to be a part of their silli-ness, and claims the right to opress women, and the right to substitute their own sharia law for Democracy and secular government, I would say that that religion is nonsense- or to be more accurate- evil. Truly, if you want to find miserable, poor, hopeless people, you need only look for Islam, and where you find it, you will find these things. Christianity, on the other hand, is perfectly compatible with freedom, Democracy, and prosperity in exactly the way that Islam is not. Christians can tolerate other religions in their country and peacefully co-exist. You dont hear about Christians rolling grenades into Muslim prayer services, but Muslims seem to be able to justify ANY horrific act of evil or murder, in the name of Allah. Christians are content to be subject to a secular government, and work within that framework. Muslims want to TAKE OVER the government and put in their own sharia law. There are plenty of peaceful religions whose primary influences on society are positive. Christianity is one of them. Mormons are another. ( I am voting for Mitt Romney, but am not a Mormon ).Hindus are peaceful people. So are Buddhists. So are many other religions. It’s only the MUSLIMS who cant seem to get along with anybody else. The Ten commandments arent nonsense, and you cant’ go wrong by teaching them to your kids. If you want to know what the essence of Christ’s teachings was, it comes down to this- “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” What’s wrong with that? Not only is it not nonsense, it may well be the most profound thing anybody ever said. If we all lived by that one simple rule, what problem that currently exists in this world WOULDNT be solved?
Good Luck, and Good Night- Ty
Kill yourself.
To: the Most Worthless Generation and the Anti-War bunch
Re: my suicide letter ( as suggested by FGFM above )
I had once thought that my arguments were un-asailable, and my logic was undefeatable, but in the face of the awesome intellectual prowess demonstrated by FGFM, I find my worldview shattered by his incredibly substantive comment.
Clearly, my whole life is but a lie.
Farewell, cruel world….
P.S. Oh, wait a minute, now that I think about it, FGFM didnt adress a single point I made, refute a single argument, dispute a single fact, or question a single conclusion that I made. Hmmm… maybe I wont kill myself after all. I guess I will just be content with having been shown the error of my ways by the obviously-superior reasoning abilities of the Most Worthless Generation….
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
TyHarris- Greatest answer that anyone could have derived from the obvious lack of intelligence portrayed by “The Most Worthless Generation”
FGFM- Your answer did nothing more then prove every point made by this article. You have not only proven that you cannot grasp the concepts within, but also, and even more appalling, you are too lazy and worthless to refute it intelligently OR lack the ability to do so and yet, you still believe that your response means something or made a point.
You only responded the way you did because you are obviously offended that every bit of the statements above are true and you have now proven that you are too stupid to even defend yourself.
“Evil exists. Period. Your only choice is to join it, fight it or surrender to it.”
Join the Marines
TY
You exagerate a bit that the starving North Korean will not forgive un-interested American youth. They might..and learn to fight their own battles.
What is not forgiven is your actual complicity in the imposition of dictatorships and hunger. Americans brought to power and maintained people like the Shah of Iran, with their CIA trained torturers of SAVAKs. This will perhaps also be forgiven over time if you ask for it.
America still supports brutal dictatorial regimes across vast swathes of Muslim world. Will my children forgive this? I do not know.
Gitmo and Abu Ghraib will perhaps never be forgiven by those who sufered and their families.
Try to meet a victim or his/her immediate family and without disclosing your citizenship, ask what he thinks of his/her torturers. Suppose you seek out the Iraqi prisoner woman sodomized by your soldiers whose face was on the internet. I doubt if she would tell her children to love America. And perhaps one of her sons, unable to bear the shame, will one day find a way to retaliate. When your children ask “Why does he hate us Dad?” Please remember to tell them the truth.
The key to being forgiven is repentance. If you repent before God, He forgives. If you repent before man, you are often forgiven. You will have to repent for your sins or face the hatred of men and wrath of God. Individually and collectively.
AND YE SHALL SEE THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YE FREE.
SAM
Regarding #5
( Sonic’s suggestion that I join the Marines.)
I do consider the USMC to be a force for good in this world, and appreciate their service, but I doubt I will ever be a Jarhead. I tried unsucessfully to join both the Army and the Coast Gaurd. I aced the ASVAB with flying colors, but I couldnt pass the physical. I have several pounds of titanium in me as a result of a bad motorcycle crash I had in the days of my reckless youth. The scars are too evident for me to bullshit my way past the doctors. They said I could set off magnetic landmines, but I suspect the real reason is that they consider me a risk/liability from a medical standpoint. If I had known that 9-11 was coming, I would have joined up straight out of high-school. Probably too late for me now, though.
For what it’s worth, I do at least try to do my duty as a patriotic American and speak out in support of the troops, and in support of the war effort every chance I get. I am not old enough to remember the hippies and the anti-war student protesters spitting on soldiers and burning the flag during the Vietnam war, but I do know it happened, and I know how far out of control those people got because decent Americans ( what Nixon called the Great Silent Majority ) were silent and allowed it. I realize that it’s important for every good American to speak up in support of the troops, and to keep the anti-war bunch within reasonable boundaries this time around. I also vote Republican on a consistent basis, which I feel is the right thing, and the patriotic thing, to do at this time in our nation’s history.( Republicans are now the War and Ass-kicking Party, and the Democrats are now the Defeat and Retreat party. )
Bush may be an idiot in many respects, but his heart is in the right place. The one thing I knew I could count on W. to do right was to drop as many bombs as possible on the islamic whack-jobs who are out there in the world busily plotting this country’s destruction. In that regard he hasnt let me down. To paraphrase my favorite comedian Dennis Miller about the two presidential candidates in 04′,- Kerry was a chess player, considering every possible move and it’s possible consequences. Bush is a checkers player- he sees an asshole, and he jumps him. I like chess, but after 9-11, I’m ready to play checkers for a while. But anyways- regarding the USMC- God bless them all.
Regarding #6
( Sam’s comments )
Regarding North Korea. I am not sure if you appreciate the extent to which those poor people live in utter ( and well-justified ) terror. I recently heard on the radio that using a cell-phone in North Korea is now a capital offense. Let me repeat that- SUMMARY EXECUTION is the punishment for talking on a cell-phone. It’s easy for us to sit over here basking in all of our freedoms, where we can do anything we want with no fear of reprisal, and judge them. It’s easy for us to say of MANY poor, opressed peoples in this world- “why dont they just rise up and throw off the evil that opresses them?”. Very easy indeed. But before we judge, we should probably walk a mile in their shoes. There are a lot of good folks out there in this world, living in true fear, who look to the US as a beacon of hope in a dark, hopless existence. We have the power to do great things in this world, and if we dont’ use that power to help, then, in many cases, nobody else will. We really do owe those less fortunate than us our support and help in whatever form we can offer it- including military intervention when it’s appropriate. ( Darfur was raised by a commenter in another forum recently, for instance. ) If the North Korean people ever do have a chance to change things- any opening to do so at all- I think they will do just that, but let’s remember that for a long time, they have lived under a reign of terror, and the first person who says ANYTHING bad about the government is a dead-man- along with his entire family. Things there are as bad as they can get. Hundreds of thousands have even died of literal starvation under that regime while the asshole leaders are busy building nuclear bombs and making their country an international pariah. At the very least, we should be playing SERIOUS hardball with the leaders of that government. We should be trying to undermine them in any way possible. We should also be playing hardball with China because ultimately, they are the foundation of that regime, in much the same way that Russia was the foundation of the communist regimes in eastern europe during the cold-war. When China becomes free, Korea will be re-united as a people just as Germany was united when the Soviet empire died. They ARE one people, wrongfully divided. One history, one culture, one language, one race, and one destiny. I hope I live to see a united Korean people restored to their rightful place in the world. When that happy day does come, some thanks will be owed to the Americans who tended the watchfires of freedom along the DMZ for an entire Generation. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton giving the North Koreans enriched uranium in return for a promise to only use it for peaceful puposes is probably the stupidist and most naive foreign policy blunder in the history of our country. Now, not only are we dealing with a sociopathic maniac, we are dealing with a sociopathic maniac with atomic weapons. Clinton’s conduct regarding North Korea was a mistake almost unprecedented in scope and magnitude. Let’s hope that Kim- in the last minutes of his regime when the palace gates are being kicked down by his starving populace- doesnt decide to flip a nuke or two at the west coast of the US as his final revenge. The guy might be crazy enough to do it if he has nothing left to lose…
Regarding America’s seemingly inconsistent support for dictatorships and opressive governments in some cases, but not in other cases- well… there are two schools of thought on that- the first school, which has basically been US policy for several decades, is that after learning the limits of our power in Vietnam, we can no longer be the world’s policeman. The theory goes that some places in this world ( a lot of africa and most of the middle-east ) are so screwed-up and beyond-our-power-to-change, that the best we can hope for is that the head-guy in charge is “our” guy- in the sense that he is pro-western ( and in the case of the middle-east, “our guy” who will keep the oil flowing ). This, regardless of wether or not “our guy” opresses his own people. While cynical, one of the arguments for this school of thought is that we dont have to fight as many wars, and we leave it up to guys like Sadaam to keep his own people in line as he sees fit. ( Thomas Freidman has written inteligently on this phenomenon of US foreign policy and it’s consequences. I highly recomend reading his stuff, to anybody interested in a better understanding of the whole geo-political situation in the middle-east. )The drawback of this school of thought is that- while it may work in the short-term- in the long-term, it’s a recipe for disaster. You have a few rich dictators and sheiks living high on the hog, while the angry, poor, opressed masses seeth in anger and poverty and are pushed into the waiting arms of radicalized islam, which draws it’s jihadist ranks from the un-ending supply of young, angry muslim youths with nothing to hope for in life.
Enter the neo-cons with school of thought number two, and the event that was their un-assailable argument for changing that paradigm- 9-11. Bush, Cheney, Condi etc. made a FUNDAMENTAL policy shift in the middle-east that is going to have repurcussions – both good and bad- for a long, long time after they are gone. They looked at our policy in the middle-east, and concluded ( rightly ) that it wasnt working, and took us down a different path for better or worse. Bush believes in his heart of hearts that we need to sow the seeds of freedom and democracy in the middle-east. The good argument for this policy is that- in the long-term, we can stabilize the reigon, and give the poor, opressed peoples a chance at a free-er,better, more prosperous life. In the process, this should, theoretically make our own country safer, with fewer crazy dictators and islamic theocracies that want to kill us, and more pro-western secular democracies that are more interested in practical progress for their people, than in spreading the word of Allah to the infidels. The drawback of this approach is that it requires patience ( which the American people notoriously lack ), initial instability during the transition from theocracy and dictatorship, and faith in a fundamental belief that Muslims are even CAPABLE of living under freedom and democracy which may or may not be justified. Bush believes it. I wonder sometimes. I mean, we spent a trillion bucks and the precious blood of our young men to give these folks in Iraq free and fair elections, and all they can do when they have a chance to choose change, is to vote-in a bunch of loyalists to the various religious sects- who then cant get along in the elected parliament. Iraqi elections were both encouraging, and discouraging at the same time. God bless them for risking their lives to vote, but you would think that people in this part of the world would have had enough of Islamic crap, and be looking for some practical PROGRESS from their elected leaders. But apparently these people are gluttons for punishment. Maybe Democracy has a chance over there. Maybe not. But it was worth a try. SOMEHOW, the muslims need to be dragged out of the dark-ages and into the modern world. At SOME point, the gap between the dark-ages, and modern progress has to be bridged. We just cant continue on this course forever- especially not in the age of weapons of mass destruction.
Somebody recently asked in another forum ( questioning our motives in Iraq ) “to whom the benefit”. Well, I would say that in the end, the only benefit to us in Iraq, is that we have made sure that Sadam’s chemical weapons program is shut-down PERMANENTLY, and that they will never be used against Americans like they were used against his own people. Also, we have engaged the enemy there- al-queada and the other assorted jihadists get put in the ground by our armed forces there every day. Better we fight them there than over here. Certainly, this war has been to our financial ruin, and has cost us a great number of precious lives as well. Gas prices are higher than when we went there, so we didnt benefit in that way either. In short, there was no benefit to Bush, Cheney or to any of the rest of us, except to get out there and fight the enemy on his own turf, rather than going on the defensive and letting them come at us on their own terms. This war was about strategic engagement, not colonialism or imperialism.
As for why we are STILL there, well, as long as the jihadists keep coming, we will keep burying them. We are in the ass-kicking business over there, and business is good. But Bush is also genuinely trying to fundamentally make a change in our policy in the middle-east, and is trying to sow the seeds of freedom and Democracy in the hope that in the long-run, such changes will benefit us too. Only history will be able to juge that aspect of the Iraq war.
So, Sam, I hope that that answers your comment about the apparent contradictions in US foreign policy. Those inconsistencies are not so much sinister or malevolant, but rather an acknowledgement that we DO have limits. We cant be everywhere at once. There ARE limits to our ability to project force around the world. Sadly, sometimes we have to pick and choose our battles in accordance with our own national interests. The order of priority when it comes to regime-change and nation-building in this time of threats and dangers, has to be determined by which regimes are the biggest threats to us. Afgahnistan had to be first for obvious reasons. Mullah Omar and Osama Bin Laden murdering thousands of our citizens and then laughing at us from their safe-haven in that country was NOT a tolerable situation. That invasion was a no-brainer, and America is fully prepared and happy to occupy that country and keep a boot on the throat of the taliban for the next twenty years probably. Iraq was probably a good second step- as saddam was NOT complying with UN resolutions regarding WMD inspections, and had been a real thorn in our side in MANY ways for a long time ( realistically, we werent going to just patrol the “no-fly” zones forever). Sadam’s non-compliance regarding WMD’s may have been the worst bluff in history, and in the end, all it got him was a rope around his neck. Bush really had no choice but to call the bluff and make Iraq step number two in our post-911 strategy, because the one thing we CANNOT have, or tolerate in any way shape or form, is weapons of mass destruction in the hands of state sponsors of islamic terrorism. We knew that Iraq had them ( to quote Dennis Miller, “we had the reciepts” ), and we werent convinced they had gotten rid of them. ( I still wonder where the hell they are. Probably sent across the border to Syria if I had to guess … ) Now, Iran is openly enriching uranium on a large scale, and That’s why Iran will be next.They had seriously better check themselves before they wreck themselves, because after 9-11, we arent playing around anymore. There’s a real simple way for Iran to avoid war with the US- stop enriching uranium. Barring that, I gaurantee you, we will be going in.
Regarding the prisoners down in “Club Gitmo”, I think that they should look at it as a chance to take a break from the rigors of Jihad and an opportunity to work on their tan ( to borrow some great lines from Rush Limbaugh ) . But seriously, your ability to somehow find moral equivalancy between America’s occasional mis- treatment of prisoners ( Many of whom actually deserve to be shot like dogs according to the rules of war as un-uniformed enemy combatants in time of war), and the un-ending litany of crimes against innocents by America’s enemies, defies comprehension. Certainly, in an army of several hundred thousand people, in a war lasting several years, there are going to be a few bad apples, and there HAVE been a few instances of misconduct on the part of individual soldiers, and some regretable un-intentional collateral damage to people in the wrong place at the wrong time. But how can you possibly compare that to what our enemy is doing? It would take me ten years of typing at this keyboard just to LIST the horrific, murderous, cruel, hateful, cowardly, appalling, INTENTIONAL acts commited against innocent civilians EVERY DAY by the Islamic whack-jobs we are fighting against over there. And THEIR acts arent isolated, or accidental, but rather are a matter of intentional POLICY designed to create fear and instability through murder, torture and innocent bloodshed. Beheadings, kidnappings, mass graves, suicide bombers blowing themselves up in schools, crowded maketplaces, weddings, police-stations, soccer games, and in places of worship- INTENTIONALLY trying to murder innocent civilians, women, and little children. And somehow our enemy justifies these crimes against all humanity in the name of their sick, evil religion. For ANYBODY to point at a few instances of American mis-conduct in the face of this pure, naked evil,( the likes of which hasnt been let loose on this earth since Auschwitz and Treblinka ) , is astounding. In fact, it’s beyond astounding. There is just NO POSSIBLE justification or rationalization for claiming ANY moral equivalancy between the US and our enemies. We are the good guys. Period. And that’s not merely a question of tactics or conduct- it’s also a question of what each side fundamentally is fighting for, and the way of life they represent. To paraphrase Edward Murrow- that story doesnt have two sides.
Regarding your “why do they hate us, dad” question, if I ever have children, I’ll explain to them the hard fact that evil exists in this world, and that it is the duty and tradition of our country to stand up to evil. I’ll tell them about what our country stands for. I’ll tell them about what our enemies stand for. Maybe I’ll list a few instances of our enemy’s innumerable atrocities. I’ll tell them about the little boy who was in the news this week- the one who was set on fire by the masked gunmen running around Baghdad that our Armed Forces are trying to get under control. Certainly I would tell them about 9-11, and about how the people who hate us killed so many innocents and destroyed so many families in the name of an evil religion. I will tell them that the hatred of such people is a BADGE OF HONOR to be proud of. That’s what I would say to my children if they ever posed your question to me.
Thanks for stopping by Sam. Hopefully I have answered some of your questions, and given you some food for thought.
- Ty
To repeat the old line, that’s not writing – that’s word processing.
Oh, wait a minute, now that I think about it, FGFM didnt adress a single point I made, refute a single argument, dispute a single fact, or question a single conclusion that I made.
Why should I make any serious efforts to rebut a political lunatic such as yourself, particularly when it’s only going to be read by a handful of people? I mean, you are so rhetorically bankrupt that you are quoting Dennis Miller (thrice) along with Rush Limbaugh. You obviously have a lot of time on your hands and it’s only going to encourage you.
Apparently the old line has gone right over my head. What’s your point?
FGFM- Assume, ( hypothetically) , that my IQ is well above average, and that if your arguments have merit, you have a chance to persuade me. It’s not neccesarily a waste of time. As far as how many people are reading my blog, (3,192 so far between the first two essays), what does it matter? Neither one of us is going to change the world with our opinions on the internet. Think of it as an interaction between two people. If each of us walks away from the experience having learned just one thing from the other, it’s worth it as far as I am conscerned. Case in point, I took a lot of greif and insults for my first essay on intelligent design, but in the end, I learned a few things- some of which bolstered my original suspicions ( insufficient darwinist explanations for abiogenesis and irreducible complexity- not to mention genetic front-loading now ), and some of which were points I was forced to concede or at least consider ( nested heirarchies implying common descent ). My guess is that I probably made a few points that hit home with others, as well as learning a few things. The best I could hope for would be a similiar experience on the second essay as well.
As for Dennis Miller, I just happen to think he’s a very smart, incisive, and funny guy. Very quotable, in my opinion. As for Rush, well, I just dont have any sympathy for the Gitmo prisoners. Cheney and Rumsfeld can put their nuts in a vice and take turns cranking on the handle as far as I am conscerned. Rush’s ongoing schtick about “club Gitmo” is the first thing that comes to my mind on the topic, since I listen to him on my lunch hour. It really is hillarious stuff if you ever listen to the program.
Anyways, I wish you wouldnt assume that everybody on my side of the political/ worldview spectrum is a lunatic, just because we see things differently. It’s not a good place to come from if you want your interactions with people online to be any kind of a positive learning experience. Bush got elected President of the United States twice. We cant ALL be crazy. And telling people to kill themselves isnt very mature. A woman came into my office last week in tears because her son had just shot himself in her bath-tub after a big argument. She was inconsolable, and my guess is that the guy probably took two lives with his permanent solution to a temporary problem. You really shouldnt say stuff like that unless you mean it. You never know the state of mind of the person out there in cyberspace reading your words- just something to think about.
In response to some of Mr. Federkiel’s comments on Anti-war.com:
First, regarding your problem with my use of the term “islamic-fascism”, I propose we let the Dictionary settle the matter:
WordNet ( Princeton University ) ; fascism ( noun)- a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarcical government ( as opposed to democracy or liberalism )
Dictionary.com Unabridged; fascism ( noun)- a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power forcibly supressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc. and emphasising an agressive nationalism and often racism
American Heritage Dictionary; fascism (noun)- a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition though terror and censorship, and typically a policy of beligerant nationalism and racism…Also- Opressive dictatorial control
Islamic Sharia Law is practically a textbook example of fascism.
Under Islam, as a form of government, the Clerics run every aspect of a person’s life, and anybody who has any different ideas is to be killed. Period. Women are subjugated like barn animals and denied all basic human rights. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press,freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, the pursuit of happiness, fair elections and representative government-all these are non-existent under islamic rule. You do what you are told, and think what you are told to think, or you die. Period. And to make matters worse, Islam isnt content to merely brutally opress it’s OWN people. This evil religion also must be SPREAD to OTHER cultures ( the infidels ) by jihad, by terrorism, and by religiously justified genocide and attrocity. Death is to be visited upon ALL who will not bow the knee to the cult of Allah. Islam is a sick ideology, and an enemy of all freedom, justice,modernity, tolerance, diversity, and progress ( both social and economic ). It is a threat to all free people everywhere, and in case you havent noticed bill, radical islam has declared war on us- which isnt really a surprise considering we are the antithesis of everything they stand for.
If you dont see the obvious commonalities between Nazi totalitarianism and Islamic totalitarianism, then I just cant help you. You can lead a horse to water, but I guess you cant make it drink…
Regarding your unique interpretation of history in which the United States is somehow consistently the villain, and in which even our intervention in WW2 was somehow a mistake, well, your viewpoint is an interesting conflation of moral relativism, selective bias, and outright denial. Yes WW2 was a “good war”, and as for the resulting geopolitical situation putting the communists in a position to take over half of Europe, I would submit that that was better than a thousand year Reich, which is what would have certainly resulted from NON-intervention on our part. If he hadnt had to fight a 2-front war, Hitler would have squashed Great Britain AND the Soviets like grapes under his boot. They Nazis may have been evil , but they were highly competent at making war. If you ever doubt that the Nazis were satanic evil incarnate let loose upon this earth, then take a trip to Auschwitz. I think they give guided tours… And if you cant seem to understand that radical Islam is pure evil as well, then take a trip to Ground Zero. There are 2,749 ghosts there who will whisper the truth in your ear if you listen hard enough. And dont forget that the number would have been closer to 50,000 if their plans had worked out like they wanted. And it will be 500,000 or more if they ever get their hands on weapons of mass destruction. They WONT hesitate to use them if they ever have them. I hope you are realistic about that fact at least. If 9-11 wasnt enough to make you want to fight, then I am sorry to say that you just dont have the stomach for a fight anymore. It happens to old warriors sometimes I am told, who have seen too much ( like John Murtha ). While I appreciate your service in Vietnam, it doesnt make you right to sit there and say we should do nothing now in our own time to fight evil. And evil IS what we are talking about here.
Anyways, I finally got around to watching Oliver Stone’s “World Trade Center” last night, and I couldnt help but think of you Bill, as I watched the movie, because one of the central charachters is a religiously-motivated retired Marine- staff sgt. David Karnes- who walks-out on his job as an accountant on 9-11 and goes to pray at a nearbye church. There, he is inspired by God to go down to Ground Zero to help. He puts on his old uniform, somehow manages to bull-shit his way past the perimeter, and proceeds to go up on the rubble pile during the night- BY HIMSELF- while the rest of the first-responders pull back until dawn for safety reasons. He climbs through the rubble shouting “United States Marine, if you can hear me, yell or tap”. Police Seargeants McGloughlin and Jimeno, who were trapped in the rubble 30 feet below him, were able to make contact with Karnes that night. The retired Marine then relayed a call to the first responders via a cell-phone call to his sister and the 911 call center in pittsburgh, ( because all the local phone circuits were down in lower manhattan). The first responders mobilized in response to the call from Pittsburg, and went in to find this retired Marine sitting up there on the rubble-pile talking to McGloughlin and Jimeno. I had to google this guy after the movie was over, because I couldnt even believe it!
At any rate, as a retired marine, I think you would enjoy the movie ( if you havent already seen it. ) I also suspect that Karnes’s sentiments on veangance for this murderous act- also expressed in the movie- probably track more closely with the opinions of the majority of current and former US marines, than does your own viewpoint. If you, and those with your anti-militaristic point of view, can sit through 9-11 and still not advocate full-scale American military action against radical Islam, then there’s no point in me or anybody else arguing with you. We will just wait until the jihadists make their next move ( being planned even as we speak )- which will be a nuclear 9-11 that takes out New York and/or Washington DC- which will probably result in a million casualties. We will see if you change your tune then, or if you are still wanting the United States to sit on it’s thumb. Presumably, when that day comes, all of the ACLU-types who are out there undermining the Patriot Act, and exposing our foreign intelligence surveilance programs in the courts and in the New York Times, will be exposed for what they are- traitors who will bring catastrophe upon us. My suspicion is that when that day comes, you will find a way to rationalize it as us just getting what we deserve. Am I right?
At any rate, have a nice Labor Day. While I find your opinions and interpretation of history to be utterly incomprehensible, I think it’s great that we live in a society where we can all express our opinions- no matter how weird they may be. I wonder if the islamic societies you admire so much would be as quick to tolerate your viewpoints and your religious beliefs. I suspect you would make it about one day in Saudi Arabia or Iran talking about the Immaculate Heart of Mary and Our Lady of Fatima before you would find yourself facing beheading. Would you agree with that?
Respectfully yours, Ty
A few links for all;
These two links are on-going comment threads relating to topics discussed in this essay which are taking place in other forums;
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/08/24/bogus-war-party-propaganda/
http://haloscan.com/comments/sonichost/6360080552052344222/
These are two articles of interest relevant to the discussion and to the essay topics for anybody interested;
http://en.rian.ru/society/20070831/75912532.html
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/016tnyms.asp
Rural communities owning guns, “the belt” as a disciplinary measure, women staying at home without jobs; you cite these as examples of a better society, while I consider their passing to be a sign of progress.
You refer to “an era of enlightenment”, in the same paragraph describing how kids were never taught to question America’s actions globally. Pathetic.
I tell you this: my peers and I, high schoolers, are no dumber as a generation than you and your peers.
An essay about America’s declining culture might have been respectable, but if your strongest criticism of America today is that we don’t send enough men to war, that children my age are learning enough to reject the notion of killing, then you deserve no respect.
John- Thanks for your comments. I’ll adress the three societal trends you mentioned above, one by one, but first, please click on the following link;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html
Please read the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, as it directly adresses the question of gun ownership, before continuing…
As I am sure you know, Ammendments 1-10 are commonly known as the “Bill of Rights”. They are specific liberties gauranteed by the Constitution, to all US citizens. The Founding Fathers felt that the right of gun ownership for free citizens was so important that it needed SPECIFIC enumeration even BEYOND the generic gaurantees of Amendment 10 ( “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.) Historically, the difference between a free-man and a slave-even going back as far as medeval times when serfs and peasants were ruled by the nobility and the land-owners- has been the right to keep and bear arms. Traditionally, the act of placing arms in a free-man’s hands has represented a vestment of reponsibility and the enfranchisement of rights in a society. The founding Fathers had this in mind when they established the Second Amendment as a critical part of their bold experiment called “Democracy” . Please remember that the United States was unique in history at the time of it’s founding, in that it was the first time that a government had been “instituted among Men” for the purpose of securing “certain inalienable rights” ( “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness”). It was the first time that a system of government had been formed wherein the state derives “their just powers from the consent of the governed.” In all of history up until that point, governments had been formed to RULE the people. It was a major and fundamental paradigm- shift to instead assert that people were given innate rights from God, and that elected Governments existed soley to PROTECT those rights. If a nation “Of the People, by the People, and for the People” was going to work, the founders knew that the POWER of arms had be vested in “the People” as well, or else government would take back the people’s rights sooner or later.
Please check out this link and read what is perhaps the boldest, most revolutionary, and most audacious thing ever written…
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document
Ultimately, the founding fathers knew their history, and they knew that governments have a tendency to take more and more power for themselves, and to take more and more rights away from the people, over time, left to their own devices. The reason they enshrined gun ownership as a fundamental right, second only to freedom of speech, has nothing to do with crime statistics. ( Although it IS a statistical fact that communities are safer and have lower crime rates where homeowners are more likely to be armed. ) People got shot and robbed in 1776 too, but the founders were willing to put up with that negative consequence of gun-ownership, because they had bigger fish to fry. Their reasons for establishing gun ownership as a right had to do with the fact that a disarmed people is fundamentally at the mercy of their government- which has at it’s disposal the powers of both the army and the police. People today in Cuba, and North Korea don’t have the right to keep and bear arms. Historically- in Nazi Germany and the former Soviet-Union, they didn’t have that right either. There’s a reason for that John. People would obviously have the ability to rise up and take back their god-given liberties if they had individual gun rights, and the dictators cant be having that. So please, before you blithely give away our fundamental liberties so quickly, take the time to read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independance. Please consider these rights in a historical context and think about WHY they exist. If you still come to the conclusion that Americans should be disarmed, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Regarding your statement that “my peers and I, high schoolers, are no dumber as a generation than you and your peers”… Assuming that when we use the term “dumb”, we both really mean “ignorant”- as in ignorant of facts, and not posessed of fundamental knowlege and reasoning abilities, then your statement is totally, and empirically false. John, there have been many, many studies done over the years, based on historical comparisons of what kids know and what they dont know upon graduation from high-school, both then and now. It’s a documented fact that high-schoolers these days, despite what you want to believe, are HISTORICALLY ignorant on an un-precedented scale. Their skills and knowledge in math, english, reading, literature, history, and critical reasoning are VASTLY inferior to those of a high school graduate 50 years ago. “Dumb as a box of Rocks” might be a BIT harsh, but not by much. The standards have been dropping for decades, to the point where even the basic ability to read and write the english language is NOT a pre-requisite for graduation now.
It’s particularly worrisome that most people your age are totally ignorant of their Constitutional rights and dont even realize how important they are in a historical context. More people your age can name the judges on American Idol, than can name the Judges on the United States Supreme Court. Seriously- try asking both those questions in one of your classes. I would love to know the results of your poll. I dare you to prove me wrong. Most current high-schoolers could’nt list their freedoms -enumerated in the Bill of Rights- to save their lives, and could’nt recite the preamble to the Declaration of Independance if they were offered a million bucks to do so right now. I have a challenge for you- go into one of your classes tomorrow, and ask every student in your class to list the freedoms gauranteed to them by the Bill of Rights. I would be amazed if one in ten can list more than two rights. I would be mildly surprised if a majority could even list one. Probably one in a thousand could cite them all. Fifty years ago, that WASNT the case. This is yet another example of the “progress” you apparently see that is not backed up by facts in any way whatsoever.
Regarding corporal punishment- Do you think that your generation is better behaved, has better manners, and has been taught the difference between Right and Wrong to a greater or lesser extent than the Greatest Generation? Does your generation have higher or lower standards for personal behavior, and for personal accountability than the Greatest Generation did? Are your neighborhoods, your homes, and your cities safer or more dangerous? Has crime increased or decreased? Are people more respectful of others and their rights now, or back in the day? Are classrooms and hallways quieter and more disciplined in the schools now or then? Are students more attentive and respectful of teachers and classmates now or then? Ask yourself these questions honestly, and apply the objective answers to the question of corporal punishment. Personally, I think the facts speak for themselves. Objectively speaking, society is NOT better off as a result of parent’s failure to discipline their kids properly, and to teach them right from wrong like they were taught in the old days. Parents have been spanking their kids for tens of thousands of years. It’s only the hubris and arrogance of the hippie generation that thought they could do it differently and get better results- which they havent. What “progress” do you see in terms of societal standards that I am missing here?
Regarding women in the home. Look, I think it’s great if a woman wants to have a career. But there’s a difference between a woman WANTING to leave the home, and HAVING to leave the home, because a man can no longer provide a decent living for his family on a single-earner income. It should also be pointed out that SOMEBODY has to raise the kids. Would you not agree? Television and day-care cant do it, and the fact that we ARE trying to do it that way, is one of the primary reasons why kids these days are the way they are ( rude, insufferable, inconsiderate, disrespectful, and obnoxious ).
You take a generation of kids, remove the concept of actual punishment for doing wrong, you dont take them to church so they never learn or revere the ten commandments, you teach them moral relativism in school, you take away parental supervision, and for good measure you let them watch gangster-rap garbage on BET and gay pornography on MTV five hours a day, and what result would you expect? Have you ever seen “Lord of the Flies?”. That’s what happens when you allow kids to raise themselves. The traditional model of having the man go out and earn a living, while the woman took care of the homefront actually worked pretty good for an awful long time, John. Again, it was the hippie generation that thought they were so special, that things would still work out well, if they casually tossed aside a family structure and child-rearing model that has worked for tens of thousands of years. In the interest of equality, I AM totally receptive to the notion of the WOMAN going to work, and the MAN staying home instead, but I repeat- SOMEBODY needs to raise the kids. For that matter, somebody needs to even HAVE the kids. We aren’t even replacing ourselves demographically in terms of births relative to deaths, because all of the women are in the workplace instead of the home. ALL of our population growth is due to illegal immigration now. This is NOT “progress” John, it’s the death of our culture. Do you have a long-term, sustainable alternative to the traditional family structure? If so, please state what it is. I am totally open to suggestions.
Regarding your generations’ epiphany that “killing is bad”, isn’t that just a little simplistic? I wish it were that easy, but it just isnt John. Let’s set up a couple of metaphorical situations to illustrate why…Rhetorical question number one… Is it OK to kill in self-defense? If your neighbor kicks down your door and tries to murder you, your wife and kids, is it OK to kill then? Most would say yes. Now apply that principle to groups of people ( countries ) instead of individuals.For instance, let’s say that South Korea is minding it’s own business one fine day back in the summer of 1950, when the North just decides to invade it. Was the South’s decision to make war- ie men killing other men on a mass scale- justifiable to defend their lives, homes, and way of life? How about when Iraq invaded Kuwait for no other purpose than because the kuwaitis had something, and the Iraqi’s wanted to steal it? What’s the difference between that, and an armed robber breaking into your house to steal your possesions and your life savings? And to use that as another illustrative metaphor, is killing OK then,in that case, in defense of your personal property? Now let’s take the neighbor metaphor one step farther. Lets say one of your neighbors kicks down the door of your OTHER neighbor’s house and is going to rob or kill THEM. YOU are not directly threatened, but you have the power to stop the injustice or let it happen. Is it OK to kill in the defense of somebody ELSE’s life or property? Extrapolate that example -again- to groups of people instead of individuals, and you have American intervention in Korea, World War II, and the Persian Gulf War, and all the killing that ensued. Would it have been better to let the Nazis control the world and commit genocide on an unprecedented scale? Should we have abandoned the South Koreans instead of engaging in a bunch of “killing”? Look at the differences in the happiness and standard of living between the peoples of North and South Korea. Is Liberty and Prosperity worth fighting for? Killing for? And how about the doctrine of pre-emption? If your neighbor starts patrolling his front yard with a shot-gun, and announces his intentions- repeatedly- to kill you, your wife, and your kids, is it OK to take action to kill him BEFORE he makes an attempt to kill you? And assume, for the sake of argument, that he had already TRIED numerous times to kill you before ,as well. Again- extrapolate that to cultures and groups instead of individuals, and you have the West facing radical Islam and Al Queada. These people have made their intentions clear towards our people and our culture, and they have backed up those intentions with murderous actions again and again. When 3,000 of our citizens are murdered in cold-blood by followers of an evil, intolerant religion little different in word and deed than nazi-ism, is “killing ” justified? in retaliation? In pre-emption? In self-defense? Should we let such people get their hands on weapons of mass destruction? Is “killing” justified to prevent the “killing” they certainly intend to do if they are sucessful in aquiring them? Look John, even us terrible, evil conservatives dont like the idea of “killing”- believe it or not. We just have a worldview where we see right and wrong, good and evil, as real things- which they are. I know it’s hard for your generation to get your mind around that, because you were raised by the hippies to see all cultures, values, and and ideas as morally equivalant. But the fact is that they arent. Evil exists. It’s real. And your generation is going to have to face that fact just like all of the generations that came before, or you are going to suffer the consequences. Being nice to evil isnt going to make them like you or start acting in an acceptable manner. It only encourages them. Life isnt as simple as you want it to be, and you and your generation arent so special that you can just walk away from your responsibilities and have everything for free, because you dont like “killing”. The freedom you have today was bought for a price by others who came before you. That price was a willingness to… A. Recognize evil, B. Fight evil, and C. Accept the possibility of killing, or being killed, by said evil in said fight. If you arent willing to stand up to evil in your own time, then your own children will pay the price for that abdication of duty.
There’s no free lunch, and the rules of this hard, cruel world arent going to change because you are special.
As for me being worthy of your respect, well, I NEVER expect respect from people of your generation. The very concept of respect hasnt been taught to you. But believe it or not, I do want the best for you and for your generation. Remember- a true freind is one who tells you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. I am willing to lose your respect now, by telling you some truths you don’t want to hear if it means that in the long run some of the things I said may open up your mind a little. Looking back now on my own youth, I can think of some times when certain well-meaning adults tried to tell me things for my own good that I just didnt want to hear,. I respect them now, even though I didnt know enough to respect them then. John, the fact that you even bothered to READ an essay that was favorable towards America, patriotism, conservative-values, and militarism in defense of freedom, gives me plenty of hope for you . I am sure most of your friends wouldnt have even seriously considered any of the concepts we are discussing. You’ll turn out just fine I think- just keep questioning everything you are told, and read history- especially history written by people who were actually there. My suggestion would be to pick up a copy of “The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich” by William Shirer. He was a german news-correspondant who actually saw it all from start to finish. You’ll come away with an appreciation of the fact that Evil isnt a theoretical or relative concept, and perhaps even an idea of how military intervention- killing- can sometimes be a force for good in this world. Thanks for hearing my opinions. I wish you nothing but the best. – Ty
Please take some writing classes. At least get a hold of a style book and study it. You make too many spelling and grammar mistakes, and your prose is plodding, prosaic, overlong, and full of cliches. If you don’t have the time or the inclination to do this, please read some Hemingway and try to emulate his English.
Other than that, I could point out how the generation you admire was one that denied the most basic human rights to a large minority of Americans, a people that strung others up “from lamp-posts by their necks” for sport. This was the age of a million back alley abortions, the era of the national conflation of organized crime and law enforcement. You are mistaken when you state that the entitlement programs harken back to the 1960s. The Social Security Act was passed in 1935. You are misleading (or naive), when you don’t account for the fact that in the 1950s the U.S. was the only functional country left in a world ravaged by war, and was therefore able to reap much economic benefit therefrom. I could go on exposing myriad errors of logic and historical falsities in your essay, for there are many, but I don’t have the time or inclination.
It is also clear that you don’t have a worldview of your own. You only repeat the pap you hear in talk of shows, all metonymy, the whinings of old men, the barely sublimated cocktail of racism and xenophobia that has come to dominate the discourse of the conservative movement.
Filter-
Greetings. Look, the truth is that I am a very, very busy guy. I work long hours, and the three posts I have made so-far on my blog have been written in a couple of hours and posted as-is with barely a read-through. I have never used a spell-checker in my life, and I never would. It almost seems like “cheating” to me. Call me old-fashioned I guess. If you consider that the essays , and all of my comments/responses, are all basically un-edited first-drafts, and if you consider the large number of words in my admittedly- too-long posts, I think I probably did OK for the effort I put out. At any rate, you should know that I have had an on-going love-affair with the run-on sentence since 7th grade, and I have never looked back. I consider it my god-given right as an American to fit everything in the world into a single sentence or die trying. I also admit that I am paragraphically-challenged, but it’s by choice, not by ignorance. If you want to know, ALL of my verbal, spelling, grammar, and english scores on both the SAT and the ACT were in the 97-99nth %tile of college bound seniors. ( And that was even back in the good ol’ days when you had to be able to actually speak and write the english language to graduate from high-school… ) I could make these essays as grammatically perfect as I want to make them. I dont bother because I just figure that the ideas and arguments I make are a lot more important than typo-correction. I look at it this way- if I write a thousand word essay and I make fifty or sixty assertions, arguments, or other points, and the best that you can come up with in response to those arguments is to point out grammatical and spelling errors, then I am feeling pretty good about myself. Your tactic of attacking the gramatical presentation of my ideas and arguments instead of adressing the idea or argument’s own MERITS basically amounts to lingual ad homenim- which we all know is a rhetorical device best suited for people arguing from a weak factual position.
Insults aside, to respond to a few of the actual POINTS you made…
Yes, I know that Social Security was originally a New-Deal era concoction. And it would’nt have been such a bad idea if it had been managed in a responsible manner, and if the money coming in had been set aside or invested, instead of being spent on everything under the sun. But expecting big government to be good stewards of trillion of dollars was an idea that always was on the dumb side of optimistic. ( About as smart as the government take-over of America’s health-care system that so many Democrats pine for… ) The program was also concieved under the false ( as it turned out ) notion that there would always be many more workers contributing to the system than there would be retirees draining money from it. But we can perhaps forgive FDR and his chums for that erroneous assumption, because that was back in the good ol’ days before abortion on demand, and before every woman left the home to have a career instead of a family. It was back when babies were actually being born at a greater rate than old people were retiring. Thanks to the left’s multi-generational assault on the traditional family structure and the disasterous demographic legacy of legalized abortion, Social Security is no longer viable or solvent in it’s present form, filter. It’s just a mathematical fact. Face up to the unintended consequences of the liberal crusade to kill as many babies as possible whenever their lives are deemed inconvenient to sexually-liberated career-pursuing modern women. Neither can we afford Medicare, Medicaid, or the Prescription drug benefit in their present forms. Government schemes that put 1 dollar in the pot and pay out two dollars to beneficiaries are not even really benefits per say. They are nothing but unfunded liabilities and debts to be wrongfully passed on to the next generation. This course that the left has put us on, is simply not sustainable long-term. And for that matter, our culture AS A WHOLE is no longer viable or sustainable in it’s present form in the sense that our population isnt even replacing itself except through illegal immigration. That isnt a talking point my friend, it’s cold, hard reality. If you have a viable, sustainable alternative to the traditional family structure, to women having babies, or to the radical conservative notion of government not spending more money than it has, then by all means, please present it to me. I am listening with my ears wide open, and my stupid conservative brain is primed and ready to be enlightened by your liberal brilliance.
Although the insidious roots of liberalism’s systematic destruction of our culture were perhaps PLANTED in the New Deal Era- let’s face it- you guys came out of the closet and really got down to business in the 60′s and havent looked back since. If you were to look at a graph of the growth of government, the tax burden, the national debt, the trade deficit, the dearth of babies being born, the ratio of dollars spent on education relative to actual knowledge being imparted to students, or at many other negative societal mega-trends , I think you would have to agree that the curves have all steepened radically from the 60′s onward.
Right now, this culture is headed for the ash heap of history if we continue on the path you people have put us on as a nation. Our education system is a wreck. Our economic system is a debt-ridden, credit-based, un-funded, completely insolvent ponzi-scheme that is being utterly bankrupted by entitlements- and the Chinese are holding all the notes. Demographically, our culture is literally dying out, and on the national-security front we are incapable of even defending our own borders- never mind being willing to project our military power around the world to expand freedom and democracy and to counter our enemies. Is this a recipe for a better country filter? Are you so sure that your side is on the right side of history, or is it possible that historians will look back on us a hundred years from now and agree that your side is the bunch that drove this country off a cliff- socially, economically, and militarily?
Your criticisms of Conservatives basically amount to insults and the intellectual equivalant of simian poo-flinging. Your claims that I am a racist xenophobe are duly assimilated and I consider these to be the obligatory mindless insults I have come to expect whenever I make the mistake of trying to have an intelligent, rational discussion with a liberal. Thanks for the predictable kind words. Now, let’s deal in some facts, shall we? Towards the end of comment #2 following this essay, I listed some very SPECIFIC ways in which Conservatives today are fighting for revolutionary reform and progress, while liberals are obstructing progress like a bunch of reactionary idealogues. Can you respond to any of those specific assertions with any fact-based arguments, or do you just like name-calling? And I’ll make you a deal- when liberals come out in support of vouchers, educational reform and school accountability, so that inner-city black kids who are stuck in your miserable, failed public school systems can have the same acess to excellence in education that rich white kids have, THEN you can call me and other conservatives racist. Until your actions start matching your words, you can shut the hell up with your false accusations of racism. WE are trying to help these people, and all YOUR side does is try to keep them down. Maybe it’s because poor, uneducated victims are more likely to need your beaurocrats and programs than informed, empowered, successful people are… At the end of comment # 2, I also pointed out how conservatives have better served blacks in America than liberals have, in terms of Welfare Reform and in the area of Housing and Urban Development- and we have had to fight the liberals EVERY step of the way, havent we? From my standpoint, liberals are MUCH more racist than conservatives. Their racism is just of a more insidious nature- it’s a racism of low expectations, and the promotion of a culture of victimhood and the balkanization of our nation along racial lines- which serves nobody of ANY race. You guys can march and protest in support of lighter sentences for black criminals, but you wont lift a finger to give the parents of inner-city kids the power to send their kids to vastly superior private schools and charter schools, or give them control over their OWN tax dollars with school choice. I saw the “Free the Jena 6″ march, but where was the “Vouchers Now!” march? Did I miss it? Was CNN having technical difficulties that day? As a conservative, I do NOT cede to you the moral high ground on race issues, just because you cloak your failed, ill-concieved, and out-dated policies in the language of compassion. In contrast, we conservatives offer real ideas, not empty slogans and insults.
And since you want to bring up Social Security, please remind me again- which party is currently fighting for reform, for personal investment of retirement accounts,for higher rates of return for seniors, and for generally making the system fiscally solvent? And remind me which party it is that fights social security reform every step of the way, just like they fight educational reform, entitlement reform, trade reform, immigration reform, tax reform, and every other form of progress that conservatives advocate for? I’ll give you a hint- it’s the Elephants doing the right thing, and the Donkey’s behaving like jackasses- as usual. Put that in your bong and smoke it , filter.
- Ty
I couldn’t resist a chuckle at your declaration of love for the run-on sentence. Bravo for that.
Otherwise, in my opinion, you are prey to what is worst in the culture: The lack of restraint, of common courtesy, of respect for established traditions (of language, in this case), all id. See, in my view, your lack of respect for the English language is as offensive as the lack of respect of a young man cursing away in front of children. They are morally equivalent acts, in my opinion, and both indicate cultural decay.
That you single out similarly uncouth (but predominantly non-white) cultural signifiers for criticism (low waistlines, thumping music, rude language, modded Honda Civics) indicates a sublimation of, yes, racism and homophobia. Note that I am not accusing you of those evils. Actually, based on your earnestness, I believe that you are a good man with a heart of gold. You’ve just fallen prey to a common meme of the conservative movement.
You also keep refering to me as a liberal. That is an impossibility. I am a (legal) immigrant. I do not yet have the right to vote or to influence public policy, and when I do, I will retain my political independence.
I do have the right (and in my view), the obligation, to learn the English language and use it well, to obey the law, and to generally be a good person (and that includes not using drugs, so please don’t cast aspersions).
I din’t mean “racism and homophobia”, I meant “racism and xenophobia”.
Sorry!
I share your concern about our fiscal situation. I really liked Bush’s proposal on Social Security and was sorry to see it stillborn. Like you, I am alarmed by the size of the national debt and the trade imbalance.
Unlike you, though, I don’t believe that the problem is caused by the entitlement programs. After all, retired people need income and healthcare – whether that is provided by government programs or the private sector is just a matter of what is more efficient – an important matter to be sure, but not the determining factor in the equation.
Rather, I postulate that the source of the problem lies in Congress’s propensity to spend money we don’t have on trifles and the Executive’s willingness to lend a blind eye to those shenanigans. That, and the enormous amount of money we spend on Defense and war. But that, my friend, is another can of worms which I refuse to open.
Filter- Hi. When somebody uses the words “barely sublimated cocktail of racism and xenophobia that has come to dominate the discourse of the conservative movement”, I just assumed that they would be coming from the perspective of the opposite side of the political spectrum- ie. liberal as opposed to conservative- since most people wouldnt insult their own side of the political aisle. I apologize for calling you a liberal if you arent one. As for myself, if someone were to call me a liberal, I would consider it the height of insult. As far as your ongoing insinuations that I am a subliminal racist- it really just isnt true. You don’t know me. Half my family is black. I would take a bullet for either of my two 1/2 black neices today and never regret it for a minute as I laid there dying. My brother in law is black, AND an immigrant. Like you, he took the time to sign the guest-register on the way into our country, and for that, I thank you. I dont’ have a problem at all with legal imigrants. I DO have a problem with tens of millions of them just walking into our country illegally however. Imigration is fine, but we need to control who and how many. That is our right as a soveriegn nation. I am not even remotely xenophobic. I like a lot of ingredients in our national melting pot- variety is the spice of life- but people DO need to become assimilated, learn our language, and become an AMERICAN first and foremost- rather than trying to start their own cultures within the culture.
You have baffled me with your statement that entitlements are not the cause of the national debt. Check out the pie-chart of the federal budget sometime. Entitlements is where MOST of the money goes, and that percentage is only going to grow as our unfunded liabilities escalate and we continue down the merry path putting 1 dollar in , and taking two dollars out. If the programs had been managed and invested correctly, they should have been- and could have been- FULLY funded by the beneficiaries who eventually recieve their contributions back in the form of benefits. Insurance companies operate like that AND mangage to turn a profit. Yes, old people should have retirement money, but it doesnt grow on trees! There has to be a sane financial system for putting money into the pot and taking money out- for ALL entitlements. Defense spending is PALTRY as a percentage of GDP when you consider how many commitments we have all over the world. We could easily double it- and probably should. The government could do that with no problem and STILL have more money than it knows what to do with if it werent for the ridiculous situation with entitlements.
Congress certainly does spend our hard-earned dollars on trifles, and yes, the executive branch seems to be in a race with the legislative branch to bribe the electorate with their own money in the form of more and more programs that we cant afford. The solution to that is the Line Item Veto, and the Constitutional Balanced Budget Amendment- both of which are considered the Holy Grail by true “movement”-conservatives, and the democrats are the only thing standing between us and those two policies becoming the law of the land. Since you favor a conservative approach to fiscal policy, and you recognize the need for social security reform, why not take a fresh look at some of the OTHER reforms we conservatives are advocating for? Start with education reform. I am POSITIVE that we are on the right side of that issue, and if you objectively consider the case for vouchers and for parental school-choice, I am sure you would find yet another example of how conservatives are trying to do the right thing – ESPECIALLY for minorities and the economically disadvantaged who suffer the worst from being trapped in public schools that they cannot afford to leave like rich white people can….
You throw insults at us conservatives, but some of your own positions seem to actually be leaning our way. Perhaps you can be swayed to join us….Now, when you read this next sentence, I want you to Cue the “Darth Vader” theme from Star Wars in your mind, and imagine these words being read by James Earl Jones in between deep-breathing noises…
JOIN US YOUNG FILTER. YOU HAVE ALREADY TAKEN THE FIRST STEPS TOWARD THE DARK-SIDE OF THE FORCE ( CONSERVATIVISM ). GIVE IN TO THE PARTY OF REFORM AND PROGRESS ( REPUBLICANS )! EMBRACE YOUR ANGER AT FISCAL IRRESPONSIBILITY! JOIN US , AND TOGETHER WE WILL RULE THE GALAXY!!!
In conclusion, I appreciate your postion on proper english much more now that I know you are an immigrant. It’s genuinely refreshing to be chastised by an immigrant for not showing the proper respect for the language. Sadly, a lot of immigrants coming here from Mexico make no effort AT ALL to learn the language, and actually expect Americans to learn to talk to them in THEIR native language- which I refuse to do. I commend you for your attitude on this matter, and I am willing to take a little justified criticism on spelling and grammar from you because your sentiments seem genuine. I just assumed you were another liberal who couldnt match wits with me on anything substantive or factual, so you chose to nit-pick my grammar to avoid actually facing any of my arguments. They do that a lot.
Your attempt to draw moral equivilancy between somebody who mis-spells words, and somebody who curses repeatedly in front of an 8 year old girl in line at a book store is not valid.
Also- a couple of facts for you that might or might no modify your view of me as a sublimated racist- ALL of the examples of inapropriate behavior I cited at the beginning of this essay were perpetrated by Whites. My dope-smoking, base-playing idiot neighbors are all white. The kids with their butt-cracks showing were all white. The dumbasses in their riced-up civics with the mufflers and the bass in my neighborhood are all white. The eminem wannabees at the book store were all white too. In fact, Littleton Colorado is nothing but a bunch of us suburban whitebread crackers here, and the afformentioned behaviors are NOT primarily attributable to blacks- at least not where I live. Believe me when I say that I am an equal opportunity misanthrop- I hate assholes of all races, colors, and creeds equally.
Good Night and Good Luck…
Click on this link to view defense spending as a percent of the budget relative to entitlements in a historic perspective. As a percentage of GDP, the difference is even more profound, especially when you consider how many military commitments we have. The lack of proper or realistic commitment to fighting the war on terror, probably explains why we are doing so poorly…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16928315/
[...] http://tyharris.wordpress.com/2007/08/19/the-most-worthless-generation-an-essay-on-the-state-of-amer… [...]
I’ve just booked marked your blog. From the little I’ve read so far I feel it unlikely that you and I agree on much but I just had to leave a comment and tell you that I’m impressed by your level headed reactions to personal attacks.
Kitten,
It would be a very boring world if everybody had the same thoughts and opinions on every subject, and I am thankful for the melting-pot of ideas that the internet has the potential to be sometimes. I am also grateful for the fact that I live in a country where we are all free to express our opinions, even when they are sometimes un-popular. It’s easy to take that for granted sometimes, but I try to remember that freedom of speech is a fundamental freedom that a lot of people in this world dont have. I often enjoy the give and take of respectful disagreements. Ideally, both parties should be able to walk away from such a discussion having learned something from the other. It IS tiresome sometimes dealing with people who think that hurling insults is a valid substitute for fact-based reasoning. I think that the tendency of people these-days to respond to fact-based reasoning with emotion-based ad-homenim is just part of the over-all dumbing-down of the culture- which is my whole point. I know that a lot of people just arent mentally equipped anymore for the concept of respectful disagreement, so I have learned that you just have to have a thick skin if you are going to be a republican conservative posting opinions on the internet. Dealing with the hate comes with the territory and I accept it. But a little respect and a compliment now and then does feel nice though, so I thank you for saying something nice about an evil, stupid, racist conservative like me.
Yours Truly – Ty
I LOVED YOUR WRITING!
I have three children whom I have tried desperately to raise as I was. My sisters give me a hard time because we make references like bottom instead of butt, and bad job instead of “crap”. They’ve only accidently seen distasteful passion on t.v. before I brake my neck to change the channel. I am proud! I’m not hurting them. I mean I can’t protect them forever but I can at very least steer them in the right direction.
I only got online to search for intellegent namecalling as my nephew is here for the weekend and while playing video games, overheard him saying things like “Take that crapface!” or “Eat it Jerk!” Shame on my sister!
I found a few words like, Blockhead, Ninny, Nincompoop, Chump, and I like your word “CRETIN.”
THANKS!
Vanessa-
I think it’s great that you love your kids enough to hold them to higher standards than the culture they are growing up in. Cultural reform is elusive, as the constant lowering of standards has happened so insidiously and gradually over the years, but surely the road back to a better and more respectful culture begins at home with parents like you.
I am certainly not perfect, and am somewhat admonished by your efforts at curbing coarse language in your own household, in the sense that sometimes my own language is a bit earthy. Part of that is the work environment I have spent a lot of my waking hours immersed-in, since I was 16, but part of it is also the fact that I just tend to be blunt and straightforward about points I am trying to make. ( Wasn’t it shakespeare who said that “Crap by any other name is still crap”? Ha, Ha… ) I do at least try to show the same respect for others that I would like to be treated with in many aspects of my life, and I certainly don’t curse in the presence of children.
It’s true that you can’t protect them forever, and it probably would be harmful to try and totally isolate them from the real world as it is, but at least you are giving them the tools to go out and make the world a better place by their conduct as adults someday. To some extent I guess we are all changed by the culture around us to a greater or lesser degree, even when we are on the “right” side of the culture wars- I know I have been changed. To paraphrase Neitsche ” Do not stare too long into the abyss, for when you do, the abyss also stares into you. The devil does not change…”
God Bless, Ty
You really should have been born thirty years earlier, so you could have truly enjoyed the blessings of living in an America where dogs were legally protected from physical abuse while children and women were not.
The hippies of the 60′s did not materialize out of thin air despite the best efforts of their wonderful parents; their rebellion and complete rejection of their parents values was the natural result of a state which placed unlimited power in the hands of adults and then desperately tried to cover up the resulting horror-show of tragic abuse that the American family REALLY was in the 1950′s and 1960′s.
Check out court documents from the time, in which a group of middle school boys recall being forced to bend over with their faces inside of a urinal while taking upwards of twenty licks each, administered to the head, neck, back, and arms. One boy describes being struck first with a board, then with a belt, and finally with the belt buckle. He describes how the room was filled with the sounds of kids, “hollering, crying and praying”, and how the children’s tearful pleading for mercy went unheeded. Several of the boys were sent to the hospital with swollen purple-black oozing bruises covering their buttocks and pus-filled knots on their heads. These types of punishment were not an aberration, but were the general rule for most kids. For evidence, refer to the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case of Ingraham v. Wright, from which all of the above stories were drawn, and in which the Supreme Court as representative of the ‘Greatest Generation’ ruled that such punishments were completely legal and acceptable.
I’ll agree that the country split in the 1960′s, but how could it not, after the half of the country who were living the ‘Good Old Days’ abandoned the rest of the nations children to their fates of being raped and tortured by their own parents in the largest epidemic of state sanctioned child abuse ever recorded in history. It was the late sixties — when these kids finally reached adulthood and began vocally complaining — before laws were finally enacted giving children even the tiniest protection from just the most egregious forms of deadly and disfiguring abuse.
Whatever their other accomplishments may have been, the ‘Greatest Generation’ also conspired together to first enable and then cover-up the most disgraceful period of state sponsored child abuse since the days of slavery. Truly, your romantic notions reflect the actuality of the 1950′s about as accurately as Gone With The Wind reflects the truth about the lives of slaves.
Many of your views about the past are highly stylized and inaccurate. I’d suggest you head over to Google News where you can now search and view archived newspaper articles going back to the previous century. You’ll find that in the 1950′s people complained that taxes were high and governments were corrupt; parents didn’t like the crazy clothes their kids wore and complained about the volume of their music. The heroin and cocaine problems topped the headlines, gang violence and youth delinquency were at an all time high and the kids were not only robbing raping, but also assaulting their teachers and yes even murdering their parents. In fact, from your beloved and idyllic rural Ohio of 1958 we find reported in the Lima News the sad tale of a boy named John Boyett H. who shot his minister father to death as the older man prepared a switch with which to beat him.
I myself grew up in a time when standards were high; it was a rare day that I made it all the way to dinner without getting whipped with a belt. Back then it was not a spanking either — it was a beating, which, on the advice of our pastor, left an oozing welt or bruise with every stroke and went on and on until I was too weak and exhausted to cry anymore however hard my father hit me. For the past twenty-five years I’ve barely slept for thinking about smashing my old mans teeth out with a hammer or pulling flesh off him with pliers.
As for people like you who are advocating for a return to the days when children and young people walked around with their heads down and in terror of being tortured by anyone a few years older than them — just be careful. I will personally go to war and kill over this issue. I’ll be coming for ANYONE who dares to put a paddle or a belt to my kids with a can of pepper spray, some handcuffs, and a baseball bat. I can teach them a little trick I learned from my dad, called how to use pain and terror to break a human mind so it never heals.
Truly I jump for joy every time I see another parent arrested for beating their kid with a belt. I see absolutely nothing admirable about the practice, and I can’t wait for the last of ‘The Most Disgraceful’ generation to finally die so we can be rid of their discredited child rearing practices for good. What a wonderful world it will be.
How sad is it that even in consideration of the money they stand to inherit, most of the children of that ‘great’ generation can not be convinced to rescue their parents from the squallid nursing homes where they are being abused, perhaps by people who still remember how that generation treated the helpless when they were powerful.
It truly is ONLY members of the ‘Greatest Generation’ who have ever considered themselves such. Their children hate them, and their grandchildren even more so. And why shouldn’t they? After all it was the ‘Greatest Generation’ who raised the most selfish mentally ill generation of sociopaths in all time. Some great accomplishment.
Hello Beatkid,
Sorry I didnt have a chance to moderate your comment before today, but I have been busy at work lately. ( FYI, I have my blog set to approve all comments automatically if you are logged into wordpress ). Regarding a few of the points you made…
Your charachterization of corporal punishment in the 50′s- ie. children with their faces shoved in urinals, purple-black oozing bruises, pus filled knots on their heads etc. etc.- as being- ( and I quote… )- ” not an abberation, but the general rule for most kids”- is silly. Do you actually believe this, or did you just get a little carried away with hyperbole there? I’d love to see some statistical data and credible research that concludes that the horror stories you describe were ” the general rule for most kids” of that time. Puhllleeeze….
I am sorry that you had such a rotten childhood, and I am sorry you have so much hate in you for your dad. Your statements about wanting to knock his teeth out and pull flesh off of him with pliers indicate clearly that you have some deep-seated psychological issues to work out- and I don’t mean that in a mean way. I wasn’t there, and I am not qualified to say who was right or wrong in your relationship with your father, but I DO think that you are wrongly TRANSFERRING your hate and anger for your father onto an entire generation that was NOT typically resonsible for the actions you are attributing to them. The anecdotes you cite above are not a valid basis for the kind of sweeping generalizations you make.
As for myself, I was an EXTREMELY rebellious, selfish, and hard-to-control kid, and as a result of my sometimes-unnacceptable behavior, I got a few whacks with the belt. Big Deal. I lived, and I learned what I could and could not do.In my case, my dad certainly never did it because he wanted to- just because he cared enough about me to set limits, and to impart to me the difference between right and wrong with absolute crystal clarity. I am a better person because of the discipline I recieved as a child. There was plenty of love that came along with it in my case, and maybe that’s where you got your unfortunate perspective from, if the discipline in your family was born from hate not love.
I also got spanked in school quite often- mainly because I was an incorrigible smart-ass, and because Mrs. Blackburn simply wasnt having any of it. School in those days was about leaning- period. It wasn’t so Ty Harris could have a forum to make jokes and to be disruptive, and I had to learn that the hard way unfortunately. I learned more as a result of the discipline, and so did the kids around me. The deterioriation of standards and discipline in schools has not benefited kids, or society in any way. The test scores don’t lie.
I am a big believer in objective truth. I try to take sides on issues- including corporal punishment- based on what I see, as opposed to what I want to see. Objectively speaking, the culture IS in decay. You cant dispute that fact. And your own statement about the ” selfish, mentally ill generation of sociopaths” seems to indicate that you agree with me on that assertion at least. The question is- how did we get from there to here? The hippie generation went a different way- they tried to do things differently- and what we see before us is plainly the objective result of their social experiment. That is just objective truth. I am sorry if your own personal experiences make it impossible for you to accept that.
Regarding your statement that you can’t wait for the rest of the “Most Disgraceful Generation” to die, all I can say is that that is a terrible, hateful thing to say about a lot of good people. Be careful what you wish for my friend. They are going fast, and the standards they upheld in this society are dying along with them. In your estimation, is the current generation making a better society than the one our parents and grandparents made? If not, do you figure that the country will be better off when the last defenders of the faith are gone? If you were to make a laundry-list of major social trends and plot them on a graph, you would see that the country is going to hell in a handbasket, and the future doesnt look as good as the past in many respects. The “Greatest Generation” is almost gone, and we are going to be reaping the legacy of the hippie generation that rejected them for a LONG, LONG time. We are looking at social, moral, and economic bankruptcy in this country in the near future.
Your statement that the world will be a wonderful place when the greatest generation is gone, will be soon put to the test. When I look at the curent socio-economic trends, and the fact that our kids graduate college now knowing less than what high-schoolers graduated knowing 50 years ago, I don’t think your predictions are justified.
One more correction. Your statement that the Greatest Generation was the “largest epidemic of state sanctioned child abuse in history” is really jaw-dropping. Where on earth do you get your information? Corporal punishment has been going on since humans split from chimps. 50,000 years ago, Grog was giving his impudent teenager a tanned hide because he didnt take the trash out of the cave like his mom asked him to. The hippie generation was the abberation. THEY are the ones who tried to change the way that kids had been raised since the beginning of human history, and the objective results are clear to see arent they?
And regarding your attempt to find equivilancy between the culture of today, and the culture of 50 years ago , by citing – AGAIN- a few random anecdotes, you have got to be kidding me…. Are you seriously attempting to say that manners, customs, public civility, crime, violence, and drug-use are comparable? And you are trying to draw some kind of equivilancy between the budgetary and fiscal situations of now and then? True, people have been bitching about high taxes since humans invented money, but have you seen the size of the national debt lately? Have you looked at what we are facing in terms of the unfunded liabilities and entitlements that the hippie generation has handed down to the current bunch coming up now? This culture is on a TERMINAL trajectory in many respects, and if I could trade our country’s balance sheet and accounting ledger for the one we had 50 years ago, I certainly would. Wouldn’t you? The old timers managed to fight World War II, Korea, and Vietnam without racking up 13 trillion dollars in debt and creating an untennable society with 40 trillion in unfunded liabilities facing them over the course of the next 50 years. It took your heroes- the brave hippies – who boldly threw aside all tradition, custom, common sense, and convention because they were so special that none of it applied to them- to accomplish this.
Again, I am sorry you had such a bad experience growing up. I am also really sorry that you are transferring all of that anger onto a generation of people that I love and cherish. I wish you could have met some of the people that I met, instead of the ones you did apparently. When I think of the Greatest Generation, I think of Mr. Clark- a man in his 80′s from my church back home. Soft-spoken, impeccably mannered, and a man who would give you the shirt off his back. Ive watched him through the years as he raised his own family – with both love AND discipline- and seen the results of his labors. He is always going out of his way to help somebody or to offer encouragement or advice to somebody hurting or in need. In fact, he recently just cashed in an IRA ( he isnt rich by any stretch of the imagination and everything he does have, he worked for ), to help build a presbyterian church in India that my dad helped to start before he passed away of cancer a year ago. Mr. Clark goes to nursing homes sometimes and brings people to church in his own car, who otherwise would be left alone and forgotten. My Dad did this kind of stuff too, all his life. Yes, I got the belt when I needed it from my Dad, but I also learned about service to others from him, and about the difference between right and wrong. I still remember when I was 5 years old being temporarily kicked out of my own room because our house was literally full of vietnamese refugees ( from the war ), that my Dad had decided to take in out of the goodness of his heart. He wast rich, but he did what he could with what he had. That was typical of him, and it was typical of a lot of that generation. The people I remember from Rural Ohio were the salt and light of the earth, despite what you say. MOST of the Greatest Generation disciplined their children the way they did, because that’s how THEY were raised, and because they loved their own children and wanted the best for them. I’m really sorry if it wasnt that way for you. May I suggest that you check the statistics on charitable giving in this country, and compare the generation you hate so much with the current bunch sometime? The people you are so anxious to see dying are the people who gave me everything, and made me the man I am today. I would give anything- including years off my own life- just to be able to have them stay around a while longer.
Good night and good luck to you my friend.
Ty:
“Manners of Youth Deplored”
“Disruption of Classes by Unruly Students on Rise”
“Americans Lead The World In Divorce”
“Boy, 16, Held In Rape of DC Girl, 5”
“Two Students Held In Teacher Assault”
“Three Had $500000 in Heroin and Cocaine”
“New Trial Held For Parent Slayer”
“Three Children Accused In Knife Robbery”
“19-Year-old Shot In Gang Violence”
“Effort To End Assaults On Patrolmen”
“Half of Girls Drop Out Before Graduation”
These headlines paint a sorry tale of America’s youth and family values, and they could easily have been torn from today’s front pages — but they weren’t. They were ripped from the headlines of American newspapers printed in the first half of the 1950′s.
Technology has caught up with the myth of the ‘Golden Era’ of 1950′s America, and as it turns out there is not much evidence that it ever existed. Viewed through the lens of its own contemporary national mass media the fifties hardly lives up to it’s reputation as an idyllic era of strong families and social order. In fact for the most part our ‘greatest generation’ struggled with all the same issues we have today, and for the most part fared no better in dealing with them than any other generation before or since.
The majority of the claims that you make about the era are simply false. For example, the course of study at that time was not more rigorous but far less so. The drop out rate was not lower, but far higher. To begin with half of girls dropped out, giving us a beginning drop out rate of 25%, to which we can then add a number of boys many times higher than is currently the case. In fact, neither of my grandparents (from Rural Ohio) ever learned to read or write. My grandmother never even stood inside a school, and my grandfather finished only the fifth grade. I suppose you could say that things were better back then since it was possible for him to actually get a job without first having completed a high school course of study which now must include computer programing, molecular biology, physics, and numerous other advanced curriculum necessary to keep our nation competitive with the rest of the world.
What is quite clear, both from comparing your experiences with mine, and from looking at all the objective evidence available is that the fifties were a time of tremendous inequality. While our nation fought dictators on foreign shores, it also created and supported millions of tiny little Hitlers back home. Men were free to treat their families however they pleased, and whether they pleased to treat them benevolently or to treat them like furniture the rest of society refused to get involved. Attempts to root out abuse of children, women, or minorities, were ‘unpatriotic’ since they went against the national effort to win the cold war by proving that the U.S. had already solved all of our problems.
My point on corporal punishment may be lopsided, but yours is equally so. According to one news paper article published by a mothers club, among thirty four families in the same community it was found that taken as a whole there seemed to be ‘no logical connection’ between the child’s crime and the subsequent punishment inflicted. Legally tolerated punishment of the day ranged from blows inflicted with hand, paddle, and strap to the use of whips, scottish tawse, and rods thicker than a man’s thumb. The numbers of blows ranged from three with a hand to fifty with a tawse, to (and I quote here from the New York Times) “oh I don’t know, until my strength gives out, probably a hundred or more.”
And it wasn’t only children who were beaten with impunity; women were not only routinely beaten with fists like a man, but were also subjected to “spanking” as if they were children. Battered women and children had no one to turn to for help or safety. In many cases they were legally barred from seeking a divorce, and even if they got one they would be leaving with full responsibility for the kids, with no money, and often lacking both education and skills with which to find work.
Any claims you wish to make about the state of politics or the economy must take into account WHO has actually been running the government for the past thirty years. Slightly less than half of our nations representatives are STILL members of ‘the greatest generation’, as are a substantial part of the Supreme Court. I’m fairly certain that the ‘Worthless’ generation of youth today are not the authors of this disaster, but the inheritors of it. But then why wouldn’t a generation who blames their children for not ‘growing up right’ rather than taking responsibility for not having raised them properly also blame their grandchildren for the gigantic mess they have inherited? Pehaps Michael J. Fox and a De Lerean are somehow involved?
While I can appreciate your fondness for certain octogenarians of your acquaintance, I would caution you to read and listen to their claims with an objective eye. The assertion that the past was virtually utopian’s compared to the present has been going around for centuries, as have dire predictions about what will soon follow if we don’t revert to back to the ‘old ways’. Take this for example:
“Before the war the negroes were of the most splendid physique and possessed of the finest health of any race in the world. This was due to the fact that the Negroes were forced by their masters to be cleanly and live a sanitary life.
But conditions have changed. Without anyone to direct them they became filthy and the conditions under which they have lived have been unsanitary. Insanity has been the result and today this affection among the Negro race is increasing with appalling rapidity.” — The New York Times, May 12, 1903
A hundred years later these statements are recognized for what they were all along: self serving lies, told in an attempt to justify or resurrect an inexcusable mistake from the past. The lie that corporal punishment benefited children in the past and that children of the future will deteriorate dramatically without it will be similarly transparent a few decades hence, and those who espoused these lies will be held up to contempt for the part they played in perpetuating it.
This entire argument is based on the circular logic that somehow the hippies were the the product of their own child rearing philosophies. It’s patently absurd. The hippies were the direct result of a culture of domineering patriarchs and harsh corporal punishment. It is completely obvious that the regiment which you are calling for a return to is in fact the root cause of every complaint you have made.
If beating children is a fool-proof method of child rearing, please explain why the ‘greatest generation’ (if they were, which I am far from allowing) completely failed by this method to impart the tiniest shred of their greatness into their offspring?
Beatkid- Sorry for the delayed response- I’ve been very busy at work. My argument is not based on the “circular logic that somehow the hippies were the product of their own child rearing philosophies”. If you check the essay closely, I never referred to the hippies as the “Most Worthless Generation”. I used that term to refer to the current bunch coming into their own now- who are the children and grandchildren of the hippies. In fact, I specifically gave the hippies an “A” for effort, ( and an “F” for judgement ) as far as their attempts to change the culture go. They were a highly ambitious generation, and have been highly sucessful in implementing their policies and ideas into the American culture. ( The results of that sucess are the problem. )
The original counterculture folks that were 18-21 years old in 1968 at the height of the Vietnam War, were the children of the World War II generation and WERE given a proper up-bringing. Those college crusader, anti-war protester, dope-smoking, flower-child, hippie-types are now just reaching retirement and their early 60′s. The culture we have now is a direct result of THEIR work, THEIR values, and THEIR choices over the last 40 years- not the “Greatest Generation” ‘s. Obviously, the “Greatest Generation” didn’t create the cultural cesspool, the moral relativism, the deterioration of standards , or the notion that everybody is entitled to everything courtesy of government programs. These ideas are a REPUDIATION of what they stood for. These are the ideas of the hippies. We can certainly disagree as to whether the values that the hippies walked away from were good or bad, but there is no escaping their responsibility for the cultural consequences of their choices. They are responsible for their actions.
The fact that the actual representatives in congress that they choose to do their bidding are older than they are doesnt mean you can shift the blame for the works of these representatives to the older generation. While many of the old coots in congress may be OF the Greatest Generation in terms of their AGE, that does not mean that they neccesarily represent that generation’s values persay. For example- on the one hand, you’ve got Ted Kennedy, and on the other hand you have Dick Cheney. Their value and belief systems are radically opposed, even though the ages may be similiar. The negative cultural trends I refer to in the essay, are obviously not a result of Cheney or the conservative, hard-ass, Eisenhower-era- values-system getting it’s/their way. If such values and policies HAD been sucessful in being implemented, then our society wouldnt be in the mess it is today. The Hippies DID get their way in MANY respects, and put into place the policies, programs, and values they wanted to put into place. Democrat and Republican administrations have come and gone, but the insidious growth of programs, entitlements, beaurocracy, the destruction of the family, and the demise of traditional morality and standards of personal behavior has continued well apace for 40 years now. Standards in the schools have been lowered to the point where half the kids can’t read, write, or do math at grade-level. The kids are running wild doing whatever the hell they want- being raised by daycare and television while Mom is “liberated” for the workplace. Kids- for the most part- are not spanked anymore and they don’t go to church either. Right and wrong are relative concepts now, and America is known and portrayed in the news-media and in classrooms as the enemy of the poor and the opressed, as opposed to being the land of opportunity and an example to the rest of the world.
The hippies basically got EVERYTHING they wanted in terms of domestic policy and changing personal moral values in the culture. They’ve been VERY sucessful. And now we get to step back and see the results. To get back to your point- no, the hippies were not a result of bad upbringing. The current generation is, but not the hippies. The flower children knew right from wrong, and they turned their back on morality and tradition knowing full well what they were doing. Again, we can argue about whether that was a good idea or not, but the objective consequences of our society turning it’s back on the old ways are not up for debate. The results lie before our eyes.
While I appreciate your random anecdotes on childhood corporal punishment horror stories, and I am sure you knew somebody from rural Ohio once, who couldnt read, I don’t think that these things form the basis of a reasoned approach to the overall questions of how to best raise a child, or to form educational policy. Statistics are probably more informative than anecdotal reports for that, if you want to form reason-based, objective opinions as opposed to forming emotion-based “feelings” – based on reports you were probably selectively looking-for anyways to support your original bias.
There are plenty of current trends that are directly TRACEABLE to bad cultural choices, to the infiltration of our national education system by the counter-culture, to the deterioration of the traditional family structure, and to the turning away of our nation from religion and morality. The counter-culture is ESPECIALLY culpable for the current public-education disaster, and for the miserable failure that American public schools have now largely become, as they are grossly over-represented in education administration, policy, teaching methodology, curriculum, and testing/ standards. ( Upwards of 90% of College Professors self-identify as liberal according to a recent study. )
Objective reality is what it is. Compare objectively-measured literacy and math skills now, among school-age children in large, urban school-districts across the country, to what they used to be, and you see the objective results of the lack of standards,the lack of accountability and the lack of discipline from both teachers AND parents. Kids are NOT any dumber persay- they are still CAPABLE of reading and doing math, but they arent being held to standards anymore, so they dont learn or behave properly. Political correctness , letting kids run wild, liberal brainwashing, ritalin, social-based promotion, and self-esteem-building are all great things I guess, if you are a bunch of hippies who want to change the beliefs and values of a generation of kids. These things have worked great as far as that goes, but they arent really a good substitute for being able to read and write. That’s the problem.
Check out the achievement statistics on kids in the Detroit and Washington D.C. school districts sometime. It’s LITERALLY a third-world type situation there. The schools are infested with gangs and drugs, the kids are 100% out of control, and the teachers fear for their lives. Half the city of detroit is functionally illiterate, and only 22% of students graduate high-school. All this despite the fact that we spend 10 times what other countries spend on education with MUCH better results. THIS is what the hippies and the counterculture gave us. These are the objective results. Another example of where the choices of the hippies have led us is the fact that here are currently 8,000-9,000 members of the “Bloods” street gang running around the New York City/ New Jersey area… murdering, robbing, raping, selling drugs, tagging everything that doesnt move with graffiti, disrespecting everybody, and generally making the culture and day-to-day life a living hell for all decent, law-abiding, god-fearing citizens. And that’s just the Bloods- one gang of MANY that is comprised primarily of 10-20 year-old kids who have no respect for anything or anyone as a result of their upbringing which could have NEVER occured in the Eisenhower era. These kids were’nt born bad- it’s the rotten culture and the changes in moral upbringing and disciplinary standards that made them what they are. I GAURANTEE you that 99% of them, if they had been placed in the same home I grew up in ,and they had been raised with the same values, went to the same church and school I went to, and had the same parents I did, with the same disciplinary standards- these kids would NEVER have beeen involved in gang-activities.
We NEED to take these kids out of these AWFUL public schools, and let the parents take their own tax dollars ( in the form of vouchers ) and put them in private schools who will enforce iron discipline and MAKE them learn and behave . We NEED to get the parents to drag these kids into church every sunday morning so they have some kind of chance to learn what right and wrong are. And MOST of all- we need to bring back corporal punishment. Parents NEED to instill discipline and control what their kids are doing from a very early age. The reason Johnny is running the streets at 10PM on a school-night doing God-knows-what, is because the PARENTS are not doing their job in instilling FEAR of what is going to happen to them when they get home. Children and teenagers are NOT qualified to run their own lives. PARENTS need to set the standards and make their rules the LAW for their kids. If that means giving them an ass-beating when they need it, then so be it. Whatever it takes. That’s a parent’s JOB, and the failure of a generation of parents to properly control and discipline their kids is a VERY large part of why the culture is what it is today.
If you like what you see around you in the culture, Beatkid, then I can understand your desire that we continue on the path we are on, and your resistance to corporal punishment. But I DON’T like what I see around me in this culture, and therefore, I think we need to go back to doing what actually WORKS and gets proven results. We need to put these worthless, sorry-ass, out-of control kids back on track, and some timely ass-beatings by their worthless goddamned enabler parents would be the best place to start in my opinion. I simply am willing to objectively view the results of the counter-culture’s 40 year social experiment and conclude that it didnt work out. It’s just a case of being willing to acknowledge objective reality. If you cant handle the truth, then just give it some more time Beatkid- I assure you that things will continue to get even worse than they are now as we continue on this path as a nation.
Ty:
“On the whole, whatever our theory or no theory may
be, our practice is to treat the child as the property of its immediate physical parents, and to allow them to do what they like with it as far as it will let them. It has no rights and no liberties: in short, its condition is that which adults recognize as the most miserable and dangerous politically possible for themselves: namely, the condition of slavery. For its alleviation we trust to the natural affection of the parties.
[However,] it appears .. that the bond of affection between parents and children does not save children from the slavery that denial of rights involves in adult political relations. It sometimes intensifies it, sometimes mitigates it; but on the whole children and parents confront one another
as two classes in which all the political power is on one side; and the results are not at all unlike what they would be if there were no immediate consanguinity between them, and one were white and the other black, or one enfranchised and the other disenfranchised, or one ranked
as gentle and the other simple.
Any parent or school teacher who takes a secret and abominable delight in torture is allowed to lay traps into
which every child must fall, and then beat it to his or her heart’s content. A gentleman once wrote to me and said, with an obvious conviction that he was being most reasonable and high minded, that the only thing he beat his children for was failure in perfect obedience and perfect truthfulness. On these attributes, he said, he must insist.
As one of them is not a virtue at all, and the other is the attribute of a god, one can imagine what the lives of this gentleman’s children would have been if it had been possible for him to live down to his monstrous and foolish pretensions. And yet he might have written his letter to The
Times (he very nearly did, by the way) without incurring any danger of being removed to an asylum, or even losing his reputation for taking a very proper view of his parental duties. And at least it was not a trivial view, nor an ill meant one. It was much more respectable than the general consensus of opinion that if a school teacher can devise a
question a child cannot answer, or overhear it calling omega omeega, he or she may beat the child viciously.” George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Treatise on Parents and Chldren.
I really don’t want to get into shouting with you, because I while I do think you are mistaken on a few points, I also think you are bright enough and receptive enough to wrap your mind around the point that I am making.
The objective facts are that the foundation of childrearing in prior generations was holding children as property and allowing parents to do with them what they please. What you are trying to do is to justify a return to holding children as slaves by saying that not all masters are or were cruel. There is no doubt in my mind that we, as a nation, would financially benefit from a repeal of children’s rights. But you might just as well argue for paying off our national debt by re-enslaving the black race.
The fact is that any institution in which one group of people has total unbridled control over another is so fundamentally inclined towards abuse that it will necessarily exhibit all the detestable and inhumane treatment which was prevalent between parents and children not only in the fifties, but in all generations prior. If you doubt the fact that the majority of what passed for child rearing in the past would constitute abuse by modern standards you must only ask your parents or grandparents, or read a few recent newspapers in which the old-timers frequently editorialize about the absurdity of jailing parents just for beating very young children black and blue.
Men and women who kept slaves in the south are famous for their gentle manners and civility. No doubt if you had sat on the front porch sipping a mint julep with any slave owner you would have found them to be very NICE people, and in some cases their being nice and well mannered may also have translated into keeping their slaves cleanly and humanely. But however nice they were, they had a civilization based on inequality, abuse, and fear.
In so far as you could say that corporal punishment did work in the past, it was only because children understood that if they didn’t please their parents and win their affection, then their physical well being was at stake. The entire system depends on some child somewhere being beaten half to death. Parents may then place this sorry broken creature before their own children’s eyes and say either, “This is what I shall do if you don’t straighten up” and thereby compel obedience through fear, or he may say “You are lucky that I didn’t do THIS to you,” and thereby inspire the child to obey out of gratitude.
Physical torture and abuse of children was not incidental or consequential to the practice of corporal punishment in prior generations; it was the fundamental essential basis of the whole system. It was the stone upon which everything else was founded. Studies have consistently shown no reduction in spanking over the last fifty years, however it is evident that the effectiveness of spanking has been dramatically reduced by depriving parents of the right to beat their children nearly to death. If you don’t believe this, please talk to your elderly friends at church. The younger ones will tell you nonsense such as that you can ‘spank kindly and in love’, but the old people know that it is utterly futile to spank a child who knows that you must stop before you actually destroy him.
The basic complaint that old people have about children these days is that the children imagine themselves to be human, and that they have been taught that they can expect to be treated with dignity. This is clearly at odds with the attitude of the past in which children’s right to even be alive was conditional on earning the respect of their parents. Listen carefully and you’ll see the utter hatred that the old have for the young — their complaints are in fact exactly equivalent to those of southern racists who decry the indignity of being forced to sit beside “Niggers”.
Your description of young people and the sweeping generalities you make about them are as absurd as the hero-worship you direct at your immediate ancestors. They don’t reflect facts but prejudices. You are an ageist, and I don’t mean that in a mean way, because I honestly don’t think you realize it. Under the rhetoric, you are advocating the repeal of children’s right to be free from the threat and actuality of physical torture. Or you are advocating a mythical magical form of discipline that has never existed in any society on earth.
I’d recommend you read Shaw’s Treatise on Parents and Children, in it’s entirety. I’d be interested to read an essay by you on the ideas he presents; perhaps you would take the idea of children’s rights more seriously if you heard it from someone who was old. The book is expired from copyright and you can get a copy for free online.
Meanwhile, I shall be sure to read your rebuttal but I won’t be replying to it as I think we’ve both said our piece at this point. Be well,
Beatkid-
I’ve never looked at the relationship between parents and children through the lense of class-warfare before. And while I dont agree with much of the characterization of the parent/child relationship in your last comment, you have made me wiser as to why people like you reach the opinions you hold. I understand the thought process better. Much of what you have written/quoted above seems to be claiming inequities and opression exist, based on the pre-supposition that children and parents are supposed to be in some kind of co-equal partnership, as opposed to one group properly dominating the affairs of the other. You seem to be comparing the relationship between parents and children to other relationships between groups of ADULTS, which is a flawed construct since you are really comparing scenarios as different as apples and oranges.
While I don’t think parents have the right to do ANYTHING they want with their kids ( as in your slave/master analogy ), I certainly don’t consider the relationship to be some kind of partnership of equals either. Children are simply not experienced enough, wise enough, self-disciplined enough, or in any way qualified to run their own lives, and anytime children are simply left to their own devices with no rules or supervision, you are asking for trouble. It’s the JOB of parents to set the rules, to establish limits and boundaries, to watch and control their children’s behavior and activities, and to teach them some kind of moral code to live by. Obviously, if this same relationship existed between two groups of adults, it would be a truly inequitable and unnaceptable state of affairs, but children are not adults, so such analogies seem inapplicable.
If you let the kids run wild and do what they want, whenever they want to do it, you ALWAYS wind up with a “Lord of the Flies” type scenario- a perfect example is the situation I described in my last comment describing the Bloods street-gang situation in New York City. THAT is what happens when kids are treated like adults with adult “rights” and are left to their own whims and choices without supervision or disciplinary consequences to their actions.
Should kids live in fear of what will happen to them by their parent’s hand if they are doing something that they are not supposed to be doing? Hell yes they should! If they dont’ have that fear in them, there’s very little else to prevent them from going ahead and doing whatever it is they werent supposed to be doing. Believe me, if we are relying on the judgement and impulse-control of unsupervised teenagers to set behavioral standards in this society, we are in BIG trouble. Deterrence works, and so does fear. Believe me, I speak from experience, as I was 14 once, and was pretty out of control. I would have been ten times worse if I hadnt known I was going to have to answer to my Dad if I didnt watch my step. That fact almost certainly kept me from doing serious jail time for my youthful stupidity and misdeeds, because even WITH his interest in my doings and his supervision, I was STILL flirting with disaster on a fairly regular basis as a young man. Without that fear of repurcussions and consequences I would have been in big trouble.
Clearly, corporal punishment is a touchy subject for some more than for others- especially if you’ve been on the recieving end of more of it than you deserved as a child. I can sympathize with that, and while I respectfully disagree with your conclusions on the subject, I also do so without disliking you personally, and without judging you. Sounds like we’ll have to agree to agree to disagree on this topic. Live long and prosper my friend…
Are there any other particular topics or current events that interest you besides the culture wars? Surely we must agree on something out there in this big ol’ world. Some of my other blog essays get into things like space exploration, futurism, presidential politics, and Intelligent Design theory. Any strong opinions or interests in any of those topics? Are you interested in the 2008 elections at all? Any candidate that you support in particular? What are some other things you feel strongly about?
Ty:
While my dad was beating me he would shout at me. He would start out by asking me WHY, for instance, I (at age five) had left the toilet seat up. If I said, “I forgot to put it down,” he would beat me for five minutes straight while saying things like, “You must have forgotten the beating I gave you for the same thing three days ago; let me refresh your memory! Is it starting to come back to you yet, or do I need to continue? Does any of this feel the least bit familiar?” And so on. Then he would stop and I would lay there sobbing with my face in a puddle of snot while he caught his breath and mopped the sweat off his forehead with a handkerchief and switched the belt to his other hand.
Then he would ask me again to explain WHY I had left the toilet seat up, and I — having no clue what answer he wanted, would say something like “I don’t know.” Then he would beat me for five minutes straight, deliberately hitting me across the back, arms, and face as he said things like “I don’t know why I’m hitting you in the face, I just do it and I can’t seem to help myself! Isn’t it great to live in a world where people do things and don’t know why?”
When his arm got sore he’d stand there panting for a minute. In the quiet spaces between my ragged sobbing I would hear canned laughter coming through the walls, as my mom, sitting in the next room turned the TV up to drown out my cries. After a minute or so, my Dad would ask me again to explain to him WHY I left the toilet seat up.
He would suggest answers to me, such as “Maybe you do it because you like being beat.” Then he would beat me and ask me if I liked it. When saying “No” didn’t make him stop I would try saying “Yes”. Then he would beat me more savagely than at any time in the prior twenty minutes, and say “Since you like it so much here is some more for you.”
After that if he was still not bored of me, he would get out the Bible and read aloud from Leviticus. He’d tell me that my disobedience made God hate me, and that he now had the unfortunate duty of killing me. He would explain to me that if he didn’t kill me he would be disobeying God, then ask “Do you want me to go to hell?” I would be horrified (as any little boy would be) at the thought of damning my Father to Hell, so I would cry even harder than before and say, “No Daddy I love you!” and he would say “Well what should I do?” So, I begged him to kill me, while he beat me furiously.
These things often went on for an hour or more. Sometimes instead of making me beg him to kill me, he would make me beg him not to. When I would feel myself about to faint I thought I was dying. I would lay there and let my soul go and pray for death, or I would cling to life and use all my strength trying to keep my eyes open. I remember waking up in the middle of being beaten.
This is how I learned to tie my shoes and how I learned to use the toilet. I’d have bruises from the back of me knees to the nape of my neck, six inch long flaps of skin hanging off me, and clots of blood buried down in my butt that made it feel like I was sitting on broken glass all day long. I slept naked on my stomach on top of my sheets because I couldn’t stand anything to touch my back. At school it was all I could do not to bawl from the pain of sitting. The fear of going home after school was so profound that I would be literally nauseated with worry all day. Sometimes I would just fall on the ground and weep from the despair that overwhelmed me when I stepped off the bus and saw our house. I knew that within three hours of getting home I would be back on the bed getting whipped on top of all those injuries. I thought I was the vilest wicked child on the planet because no matter how hard I tried to be good I could not avoid being whipped almost every day.
I developed PTSD sometime around the age of five. My father tried to cure it with more beatings and, predictably, made things worse. By high school I was pretty much disabled on a more or less full time basis by diverse mental illnesses including behavioral and personality disorders too numerous mention. The PTSD morphed into the chronic relapsing and remitting form which has kept me functionally disabled off and on for more or less all of my life. I ran away from home at age fifteen. Three months after my 18th birthday I hurt another teenage boy so badly that he was never expected to fully recover, and as a result was incarcerated until the age of 21. During most of the years after my release I coped with the symptoms of PTSD by remaining heavily sedated with morphine and alcohol. I finally sobered up, I hope for good, about two years ago.
I guess it is time to say that something happened which changed my whole life for the better and made it all worth it in the end; but there’s nothing. A lot of energy is expended in avoiding and coping with things like flashbacks, obsessive compulsive disorders, and anxiety attacks. I spend a lot of time thinking about revenge and suicide. Like any handicapped person my life is bent around the shape of my disability. On average I have ten days per month when I am either too depressed or too anxious to get eat, sleep, or work. It makes me pretty much unemployable in a normal sense, so I run a small business from home, which supports my family and allows me the flexibility to cope with my symptoms when I can’t work around them.
I guess you could say that I just have this one thing that overshadows everything else in my life. So what I do is read the news every day, and I write. I write to judges and politicians and pastors and prosecutors all over the country. I comment on news stories and blogs.
You know for me it’s not really about rhetoric and winning an argument. I wake up screaming. It’s been months since I slept more than four hours in a row. It’s a lot for a person to deal with, and it’s a lot for my wife to have to live with.
You buy your childhood on the backs of kids who are tortured and killed. You could stop it, but you choose not to because you benefit from it. It’s a morally indefensible position, which only does not seem so to you because you are personally so distant from the scene of the tragedy.
I don’t really see room for an ambiguous answer. Either you are willing to allow children to be tortured for the greater good, or you are not. And if you are willing to allow people to be tortured, you can’t expect the people who survive to view you as anything but their most bitter and hated enemy.
I’ve never advocated any of the things that you seem determined to attribute to me, and you talk about sadistic torture and common-sense spankings administered with moderate and reasonable force as though the two things are interchangeable and equivilant! Stop that! I advocate parents controlling the actions and behaviors of their children, and spanking them when nescessary, and with reasonable use of force- not beating kids within an inch of their life because they left the toilet seat up for christ’s sake!
What you experienced was just abuse. Plain and simple. And it’s not what I’m talking about or advocating for! I’m very sorry that these things happened to you, but you simply can’t assume that because they did, that your experience was typical, and that corporal punishment should therefore be banned as a result. That is a fallacy. To do so is the logical equivilant of demanding an end to people driving automobiles because somebody you know was tragically killed by a drunk driver. That happens every day to a tragic few, but it does’nt mean that society shoud overreact and take away everybody elses rights to live their own lives- or in this case, to raise their families as human beings traditionally have raised children since our species split from chimps- because somebody somewhere will abuse a given right or responsibility.
The right and responsibility of a parent to discipline their child is still a fact, even when – tragically- some parents ARE going to take advantage of that right/responsibility to abuse. We can’t just let the kids raise themselves and run the streets like packs of wolves because we are afraid to impose upon their “rights”, or be afraid to administer a timely spanking to a child who needs a lesson, because SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE is going to be abused by an asshole parent who takes it way too far!
I’m going to tell you God’s Own Truth- the kind of abuse you describe has NEVER been typical at ANY time in this country’s history, now or 50 years ago. And furthermore, it seems to me that the kind of sick shit you describe could happen regardless of the legality of corporal punishment. Do you feel that such a law would have made any difference in your case? Corporal punishment is basically illegal NOW in America for all intents and purposes, and yet I still hear of horrific cases of abuse every now and then. For any given number of families, you are going to have a certain number of them where child abuse is going to occur. Banning corporal punishment will have no effect on that number, any more than banning handguns has stopped drive-by shootings in Washington DC. Criminals dont stop being criminals because you pass laws that say they cant do something, and abusers arent going to stop abusing even if we prevent all non-abusive families from administering spankings to their kids.
You are talking about abuse, and I am talking about proper and measured discipline. I dont understand why you have to try and conflate the two concepts as one and the same thing!
I am just as much against the kind of stuff you describe as you are, but I don’t really see that giving a kid a spanking now and then when he really, really needs it is the same thing as what you are talking about. I recieved corporal punishment as a kid, and yet I don’t seem to wake up in the middle of the night screaming, or obsess about revenge and all that. Neither do MOST people who got spanked every now and then as a kid when they really needed it, and got it from a parent who loved them. That’s because there WAS love behind the discipline I recieved, and because it never rose to the level of abuse like you are talking about- just like it didnt happen like that in MOST families who spanked their kids. Your experience WASN’T typical, and neither are the emotional consequences you are suffering. PLENTY of people from my generation got spankings as a kid, and you are actually the ONLY person I have ever met, or talked-to, who has had the kind of experience you describe in your comments, or suffers from the kinds of after-effects you suffer from. I’m not saying that you’r the only one, but you’r a lot closer to the exception than you are to the rule.
I think that you are just making the mistake of assuming that your situation is typical among families where corporal punishment was used, and are attempting to draw public-policy conclusions from that flawed assumption.
Again, I truly feel for you and your situation, but I dont think that we can avoid the kind of abuse you experienced by expecting a whole generation of parents to abandon their time-honored responsibilities as parents to discipline and punish their kids when they do wrong. We’ve seen the results of that social experiment, and it’s one primary reason why the culture is a trainwreck now, and one primary reason why the kids are completely out of control. I totally advocate prosecuting child abuse to the fullest extent of the law, but spanking a kid when he needs it- with reasonable and moderate force- isn’t child abuse. It’s called being a good parent, and we NEED the parents to start doing their job again if our nation and our culture is ever going to return to being civilized and respectful again. It may sound cold, but I’m not willing to sacrifice our culture, and our entire way of life just because some parents- like yours- chose to abuse their kids.
Besides- when all is said and done- may I just point out that you have actually WON this little argument, because what you want is the law of the land. Parents don’t dare to touch their kids now, and the little bastards do whatever the hell they want for the most part- hence the state of the culture. You and I just disagree over whether that is a good thing or not. I say it isnt, and you apparently feel it IS. So I offer you congratulations on your victory- your side won. And all people like me can do is bitch and complain about it on the internet. That should give you some solace and satisfaction shouldn’t it?
I sincerely hope you are able to find some peace my freind. I’m sorry if you consider me your “most bitter and hated enemy”, but believe me- if I was, I would’nt be sincerely hoping for nothing but the best for you, and I do indeed hope for that. Not that you want my advice I’m sure, but I’ll give it to you anyways. To find peace, you have to let go of the hate in you, and you are going to have to fill your mind up with things other than than this topic, because it obviously causes you to dwell on your past- which doesnt appear to be a healthy thing for you. Dwelling on the past, and filling yourself up with feelings of hate and veangance accomplishes absolutely nothing, and life is too short to waste on things you cant change like the past . You’ve got to let it go, and look forward with hope for something better and replace that hate your’ carrying with love in your heart for things that are worth your time and devotion. There are a lot of good and noble things in this world more deserving of your energies and attentions than this thing that’s eating you up. I hope you can find peace, happiness, and wellness through a different focus, and a more positive ,forward-looking perspective someday.
http://www.wm.edu/amst/370/2005/sp1/images/lucy%20doctor%20stand.jpg
I’ll waive the usual fee for my amateur psychoanalysis. ( Sorry for the link above if it offends- it’s just an innocent- and probaby ham-handed- attempt to try and cheer you up by injecting a little humor into what is obviously a very serious subject/situation for you. )
Best of Luck to you… Ty
Ty:
I do have a sense of humor.
To take your automobile analogy a step further, what you are saying is that we should stop prosecuting DUI because it is has put a damper on the alcohol industry. You want to go back to the happy carefree days when people drank to their hearts content and were only prosecuted after they caused an accident and killed someone. This is a great idea provided that you completely don’t give a shit about the people who wind up spending their lives paralyzed from the neck down.
Whatever you intended, you wrote an essay in which you used the most recent generation to have denied children basic human rights and protection from torture as an example of proper treatment of children. You said that the fact that at that time they were allowed to do things to their children that would get a person arrested today was the specific reason that things were better back then. If this is not a demand for a repeal of children’s rights and a return to the days when parent’s abused their children with impunity, then what is it?
I don’t think that abuse is equivalent to spanking, or that my case was typical, but I do think that our roads are safer when we arrest drunks before they have an accident, and I also think our kids are safer when we intervene in families before abuse becomes so egregious that the child can never overcome it. I have no doubt that if I were a child today I would have been better off.
I’ve never said anything about banning corporal punishment or keeping parents from correcting their kids. I’ve said that it is one thing to marvel at the Egyptian Pyramids, but it is something else to put the accomplishment forward as something we ought to emulate while ignoring the fact that it was built by slaves. The 1950’s was not an example of a Utopian society, nor was it any kind of example of how a culture should treat its children. It was a time of tremendous suffering and inequality for everyone who was not a white man, and as a nation we are still dealing with the repercussions of denying basic human rights and dignity to most of the population.
While we may not have yet solved the problems of drugs, gangs, divorce, education, poverty etcetera, we have made significant progress in correcting inequalities and abuses which were rampant just a few generations ago. How you can put the huge mountain of suffering and social injustice that existed in the 1950’s on one side of a scale and place problems like ‘a lack of manners and civility’ on the other and not feel that on total we have progressed a little bit is beyond me.
And now you are the one getting carried away with hyperbole by claiming that corporal punishment is abolished when it is legally protected and practiced in homes in all fifty states and at school in 21 states. Last December I wrote to a judge who sat the case in which an 8-year-old boy was left black and blue by a belt whipping dismissed charges and stated that spanking was supposed to leave marks, “how else will the child remember it?” Last week two parents were arrested for burning their boy’s penis with cigarettes — they had been previously investigated and cleared of abuse for a belt whipping that left the boy with bruises on his back. Clearly we are a long way from it being illegal to spank your child, even with a belt.
It is not true that the only choice parents have is to beat their child or else do nothing. This type of rhetoric is exactly what causes ignorant parents to believe that the true parenting practices of prior generations (such as spending time with your child, being involved, modeling values, setting limits, etc) are actually ‘new-age psycho-babble’ which can and should be replaced with frequent and harsh beatings. Complaining that the law does not let you beat your kid enough is really the final step in a long series of cop-outs by lazy self-centered parents. In one recent large study parents spent less that 15 minutes per day, on average, interacting with their children; Do you really think that the solution here is for people to spend more of that fifteen minutes whaling on the kid with a belt?
Hmmm…. well, I’m glad we cleared all of this misunderstanding up. You are now aware that I don’t advocate child torture, and I am aware that you are in favor of corporal punishment. Clearly, between sadistic abuse, and ambivolent negligence lies a proper level of parental disciplinary action. My thesis is that an appropriate level of parental control of children’s behavior is not currently being exercised. Whatever the proper level is, it isnt being currently met.
That’s not to say that corporal punishment is the ONLY thing missing from kid’s lives these days that is causing them to wind up like they are. There are a number of factors. In black America, the number of kids growing up without fathers is quite alarming. The debate of whether the Dad is using too much force in spankings becomes somewhat moot when there IS no father. Young men especially, tend to go down a bad path without a father figure in their lives. Especially if the single Mom has to work- which often leaves the kid with little or no supervision or discipline.
The lack of parental supervision in formative years these days-even in a two parent household- is a problem. Macro-economic trends have made it impossible in many cases, for a single earner to provide a good living for his family, so now the women have all left the home and are out there in the workplace while the kids are being raised by daycare and television- again, the Lord of the Flies scenario quickly comes into play. The trend away from families going to church is not good either. Some of religion is crap of course, but on balance, but at least most kids will come away from regular church-going as a kid, having aquired a concept of basic right and wrong- thou shalt not steal etc…. There ARE some lessons to be learned there- whatever organized religion’s flaws may be… ( And there are many… don’t even get me going on the catholic church, which i think has lost ALL moral authority at this point. If I was a prosecutor, I’d charge the whole organization under the RICO statute with conspiracy to commit molestation and to obstruct justice- from the pope right on down. ) The cultural cesspool kid’s grow up in now is also a bad influence. TV, movies, music, the internet- so much of it is just filth. The public schools are a miserable disgrace in many cases, and they have a proper role to play in a child’s development too which they arent playing. So- again- it isnt all about corporal punishment…
From my own experience, a HUGE factor on me growing up as a young man and a thing that helped me to set foot on the straight and narrow path in life, in my early/mid teens, was participation in school-sponsored athletics. The positive influences of coaches at that critical time in a child’s life can make all the difference. Also, such participation can represent POSITIVE peer pressure from team-mates. There was positive group pressure to hold myself to certain standards, to achieve more, and to become a better person, as opposed to negative peer pressure to engage in other not-so-savory activities that a teen can find himself quickly pulled into through his or her associations at school. The mental discipline I learned through participation in several years of Track and Cross-country really helped to forge my charachter. Not that I’m perfect by any stretch of the imagiantion, but I’m a better, stronger person than I would have been without those years of struggling to be the best I could be in the sport of running. The physical act of running itself was meaningless of course, but the mental practices that I had to learn to become better at it- the habits, and the discipline- had many carryovers into adult life that have served me well. So I would reccomend getting kids involved in athletics- any kind of athletics they enjoy or take to- to help them grow up mentally and emotionally strong. Again, the positive peer-pressure helps parents out as well, and parents need all the help they can get these days.
On our team, Coach Day, Coach Gaul, and Coach Miller were unambiguous about what was expected of us. If we were ever caught drinking, smoking or using drugs, we were off the team. Period. No appeals, no second chances- that was it. Also, there were high academic standards that were prerequisites to participation in the program. It was a good scenario for a teenager to be in.
As far as your statement about 21 states having the right of a parent to do basically whatever they want with their kids- having not gone over the statutes word for word, I will accept your charachterization of the laws, with a suspicion that there is probably some provision in these states SOMEWHERE for dealing with the kind of abuse you describe- cigarrettes on the penis etc. etc. I dont think anybody is advocating this kind of thing. Again, there is clearly a grey area as to how much force is used- and under what circumstances said force is to BE used. I would just say that it isnt being used ENOUGH these days by MOST parents. I think the terminal cultural trajectory we are on would be evidence of that fact. Parents may have the RIGHT to discipline their kids in some places, but that doesnt mean they neccesarily are doing it.
Since your sense of humor is working, I don’t advocate the following type of abuse either….
Ty:
Aside from spending my young adulthood incarcerated, I spent years as a volunteer counseling and ministering to inmates in jails and state prisons in several states. I spent two years specifically counseling youthful offenders — young men age 14 – 23, who were sent to state prison for their first conviction.
In the state reception center we had around 3000 youthful offenders per year come through the chapel and in all the histories I ever took I never met one kid in prison who wasnot well acquainted with ‘the belt’.
The claim of being saved from prison by corporal punishment is a joke to anyone whose ever been near a prison. To begin with, it is very hard to get into prison, especially for a young adult or teenager . They don’t put you there for swearing, skipping school or stealing cigarettes. In fact they won’t even put a young man in prison the first time he burglarizes a house, gets caught dealing drugs, or is arrested for robbing a convenience store. To get into prison you have to do something heinous, or you have to demonstrate that you are absolutely incorrigible by repeatedly violating your probation by committing new felonies.
The younger a person is the harder it is for them to get into prison. Thus, I spent several weeks praying and studying with a fifteen year old who, along with his older brother and some friends, murdered an entire family with a baseball bat. For kids this young murder is pretty much the only thing that will get you sent to prison. For older teens it typically requires a serious assault or threatening someone with a gun.
On the other side you have incorrigible offenders. These young men typically have records that begin in junior high school, come divided into chapters, and contain dozens — if not hundreds — of arrests. Typically they have run away from home, spent time in jail, repeatedly escaped from juvenile detention centers, and have repeatedly failed to complete probation and house arrest.
Almost all of the kids in the prison chapel were already ‘saved’ when they arrived in prison. Almost all of them know the words to the hymns by heart, and are familiar enough with the Bible to know where to open the book to when you call out a verse. Some of them will even argue theology with you, and support their arguments with scripture. In the dormitories, some of the same boys who organized drug dealing gangs outside organize prayer groups and Bible studies on the inside.
All the inmates that I’ve ever spoke to described corporal punishment to one degree or another. Extremely harsh corporal punishment is the rule among the violent, deranged, and pathologically antisocial — child molesters, rapists, and murderers, as well as those who make a career out of earning people’s trust and then taking advantage of it. Far from keeping people out of prison, degrading and physically harsh corporal punishment lays the groundwork for virtually all of the most heinous crimes. In fact, physical abuse — not sexual abuse — is the factor most strongly correlated with sex offending behavior of all types including serial murder.
Corporal punishment is also cited as the most common disciplinary tactic in use in the homes of incorrigible delinquents — and has been since the 1950′s. Whether you believe that those who experience corporal punishment are more likely to become delinquent or that those who become delinquent are more likely to receive corporal punishment, the one thing that is plain is that corporal punishment does not seem to be any deterrent at all to further delinquency.
Most of the inmates I’ve spoken to volunteer the fact of their corporal punishment by way of defending their parents from blame for their actions. When asked about his parents, one young murderer immediately jumped to his mothers defense, saying, “Oh no, I got the belt. They gave me the works.”
In fact, almost all of the incorrigible kids I’ve met in prison considered their parents to be ‘good parents’, by which they meant that their parents had made copious use of ‘the belt’. If you asked them to mention some ways that their parents had been involved in their lives OTHER than beating them they almost invariably mentioned taking them to church.
Incorrigibly delinquent children do not come from parents failure to administer corporal punishment, but from parents who fail to do anything else. This is because in the absence of fellowship, the child has no reason to care what the parent thinks of him or of what he does. The child rightly views any kind of normal spanking as nothing more than a minor assault which he must tolerate until he is old enough to leave home. It inspires about as much fear and respect as a wet-willy or a Charley horse delivered by a playground bully.
When you get to the point that the only influence you have on your child is that your right to legally beat him you have failed as a parent. At that point the only way you are going to influence his behavior is to literally beat the child into submission as you would beat and break a slave. That is the ONLY way that any human has ever successfully commanded obedience by substituting fear for respect, and not surprisingly people who are treated with a total lack for their dignity and humanity grow into people with no regard for the dignity, property, or lives of anyone else.
I think that you, and the “churchy” people you are listening to are just about completely wrong as far as your theories on what our youth are lacking these days. If there is any ingredient that is desperately lacking from parents relations with their kids right now, it is certainly not corporal punishment. In fact, a child is almost certainly better off not being beaten by a person who is otherwise completely uninvolved with him.
At this moment probably the best behaved and highest performing children in our culture are those who are being raised in ultra-progressive homes where corporal punishment has been abandoned in favor attachment parenting. But deliberately and systematically building a relationship in which your child emotionally depends upon you and looks to you as the source of his self worth and significance is time consuming and difficult, while beating a child with a belt and sending him to his room so you can watch Seinfeld re-runs is quick and easy.
The emphasis on corporal punishment by churches and ignorant goofs gives parents who prefer to be lazy and uninvolved the idea that they can abandon their children in front of the TV all week long, and then correct for their total lack of parenting by dragging the kid to church for an hour on Sunday. They consider their parental disciplinary responsibilities to be fully discharged by beating the kid with a belt once per quarter for getting a bad report card. When the kids turns into a delinquent they take no responsibility, because, after all, they beat the kid plenty and took him to church.
If a parent gets everything else right, they can leave out the belt and the kid will be fine. On the other hand, if the parent gets everything else wrong, the belt is not going to fix things.
I think you are guilty of inciting child abuse. Firstly, in that you imply that society should enforce parents rights to physically punish children with whom they have no meaningful fellowship and whom they have taken no effort to train. This is a gross abuse of parental authority. Secondly, you have given credibility to parents who defend as discipline the act of terrorizing a child into cowed and broken obedience.
It seems to me that we would have a far better chance of becoming a civilization that actually lives up to the nostalgic mythologies of the past if we were to begin encouraging parents to PARENT their children (whether or not they choose to beat them) rather than encouraging parents to beat their kids whether or not they have taken the time to parent them.
Beatkid-
Sorry for the delayed response. I’ve been busy at work with no days off for some time now. I suspect it doesn’t matter anyways, since we seem to be talking right past each other…
Regarding your comments about incorrigible children who in many cases say that it wasnt their parent’s fault that they wound up where they are, that is probably true. In the age-old debate of nature vrs. nurture, the truth is that it’s almost certainly a combination of the two. In fact, I would say that how a person turns out in life is probably about 1/3 upbringing ( nurture ), 1/3 genetics and inherited personality/mental traits ( nature ), and 1/3 personal choices and decisions made for better or for worse. Those aren’t exact numbers of course, but clearly, all three factors play a role to a greater or lesser extent.
Some people are just plain born bad. Some people are simply born without a conscience or the ability to have sympathy or empathy for others, and corporal punishment will have no effect on that.
Some people are just born with LESS of a conscience than others are. Some people’s brains are simply not wired like other people’s are, and some people are just more dishonest, more agressive, more violent, and more angry from an early age. Sometimes no matter how you raise a kid, he’s going to go down a bad path in life due to his natural tendencies. Jeffery Dahmer’s parents may have made mistakes, but ultimately, nothing they did or didn’t do made Jeffery what he was. Obviously, Dahmer is an extreme example, but I think it’s fair to say that people are born with the capacity for evil in them, to a greater or lesser extent than this example, and that evil can manifest itself in a person irrespective of their upbringing in some cases.
Also, bad personal choices and mistakes made of pure free-will regardless of upbringing or natural tendencies- can sometimes put a kid on a bad path. And that’s not a case of nature OR nurture- it’s just about personal accountability. For instance, a large percentage of violent crime in this country is directly traceable to drug and alchohol usage. You can take a good kid sometimes, with a perfectly good upbringing, whose only charachter flaw is that he is suceptible to peer pressure and because of that weakness, they start down the path of drinking and using drugs. Next thing you know, they are addicted or are an alcoholic, and are commiting god-knows-what evil acts to feed their habit, or are commiting acts of domestic violence under-the-influence that they would never have commited sober. In cases like that, it comes down to nothing more than bad personal choices… a wrong turn at a fork in the road of life that leads a person to a bad place, that cannot be blamed on upbringing OR on an inherantly defective personality.
I agree that corporal punishment may have no effect on the truly incorrigible, but that’s not a logical basis for judging the validity or usefulness of corporal punishment on the OTHER 98% of kids who AREN’T incorigible. Again,you are trying to extrapolate sweeping assertions from a small unrepresentative sample group.
I’m familiar with the phenomenon of everybody in prison claiming to be “saved”. Again, this is a very small sample group of a much larger christian community that somehow manages to NOT wind up in prison, so let’s not judge the value or methods of the other 98% based on the bad 2% shall we?
Regarding your statement about the best behaved and highest-performing kids being those who reside in ultra “progressive” homes where corporal punishment has been abandoned, I would have to say that your statement is total bullshit and I would love to see the factual basis for this preposterous assertion. I was really trying hard to take you seriously, and then you go and make another completely un-supportable statement like this.
In the larger sense, Liberal values and policies are behind MOST of the negative cultural trends that are affecting how children behave today and are the root cause of the lack of respect that is so prevolant now, but didn’t use to be.
Corporal punishment is much less prevelant today than it was 40 years ago. Would you agree? Whose idea was that- the liberals or the conservatives? Are the children better behaved today as a result? If not, then whose fault is it? The liberals whose policies and ideas have been implemented in society, or the conservatives and traditionalists whose ideas and values were abandoned?
Religious devotion and church attendance is down- whose idea was that? Liberals or conservatives? Moral relativism is in, and rigid concepts of judgement and morality are out- whose ideas are these? Liberals or conservatives? Academic standards, personal accountability, traditional methods of discipline have been taken out of the schools, and instead, we now have social promotion, self-esteem building, kids who graduate high school without being able to read or write, and teachers who fear for their lives in schools run by the children who do whatever the hell they want. Whose idea was all of this- the liberals or the conservatives? Children are being raised by daycare and television, because the mothers were “liberated” from the home and sent off to the workplace. Whose idea was that? Liberals or conservatives? Fathers these days are fearful of being investigated by Child Protective Services and of being charged with child abuse if they DARE to spank their disobedient and unruly Kids- whose idea was that? Liberals or conservatives? Filth and vulgarity pervade every aspect of popular culture now, and the kids grow up in this moral cesspool emulating the examples of poor behavior that bombard them from every side- who has been fighting to lower the cultural and moral standards of decency, and who has been fighting to uphold them over the last few decades? The liberals or the conservatives?
Liberal values and liberal policies over the last few decades have given us this mess,- they are 100% responsible for this sorry state of affairs, and yet you pine for more children to be raised in “ultra-progressive homes”….? Are you insane? Your capacity for self-delusion and for seeing what you want to see instead of what is right before your eyes is truly astounding. What else can I say except “Enjoy the Koolaid” brother…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown
Furthermore, your statement about NEVER meeting a single incarcerated inmate who wasnt intimately familiar with “the belt” can’t possibly be true. For one thing, African-Americans are statistically over-represented in American prisons, and half of those African Americans are raised in households where there IS no father! African American men simply get a woman- or many women- pregnant and walk away from their parental responsibilities. Illigitimacy among African American children is up to 70% now in many large urban areas. Pray tell- who is using “the belt” on all of these leigons of abused, beaten, over-supervised and over-disciplined misguided youths when there isn’t even a father IN the household? What chance does a single Mom have of controlling, physically abusing, or giving “the belt” to an unruly male teenager who is physically stronger than her at age 13? Maybe you should consider your sources in this matter. Are incarcerated inmates typically known for their honesty? I’m not sure whether you are just making up this bald-faced prevarication to support your position, or if you are merely guilty of believing lies told to you by others. Either way, I don’t believe you, and I’m willing to go out on a limb here, and guess that 99 % of your young offenders did’nt get where they are because of excessive parental supervision or excessive parental discipline.
Regarding small matters of manners and civility being set upon the scales against all the ills of society that enlightened liberals have solved with their brilliant policies and ideas, I would have to say that your characterization of the current problem with today’s youth is just a TINY bit understated….
Here are a few minor matters of civility and manners for you to consider that took place in the last week or so in our dying culture….
> 30 kids jumped out of a car and beat a kid senseless for no reason. It happens all the time….
http://cbs11tv.com/local/attackers.record.beating.2.700707.html
> 6 cheerleaders beat a girl unconscious for posting derogatory statements about them on my-space. After they were arrested none of them showed the slightest remorse…
http://cbs11tv.com/national/teens.beating.videotaped.2.694634.html
> A teacher was visciously beaten by a student IN CLASS while fellow students cheer the student on. The school took 3 DAYS to decide to suspend ( not expell ) the student. It was the 112th ( ! ) physical attack on a teacher by a student in the Baltimore Public Schools this year. I am sure George Benard Shaw would be very proud to see that these students are no longer being wrongfully opressed by patriarchal authority figures.Viva La Revolucion! How very Progressive!…
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-md.ci.violence13apr13,0,4784479.story
> And my personal favorite this week – a video of a 2 year old being forced to smoke pot by teenagers who were supposed to be in school. ( Refresh my memory please- was it the enlightened liberal counter-culture, or was it the mean, stupid religious conservatives who thought that drugs were such a great thing and went on to make pot-smoking so prevolant in our society? Was it your brilliant “ultra-progressives”, or was it the conservatives who have been trying for years to legalize drugs in our country? My memory is a bit foggy on that issue… )
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/baby-forced-to-smoke-pot/3343201585
Basically, we have millions of feral teenagers running the streets like packs of wild dogs while their parents do nothing, and millions of out-of-control children running the miserable, failed public schools instead of the teachers and the administrators who SHOULD be running things. The current generation seems to have no respect for anything or anyone. They have no concept of right and wrong. They are dumber than a box of rocks, because the academic expectations that are placed on them by the liberal education establishment are half of what they used to be. They do whatever they damned well please, with little supervision, and no fear of punishment, thanks to four decades of liberal assaults on religion, on our education system, on standards of decency, on our country’s traditional codes of morality, and on the traditional family structure. Let’s hear it for the ultra-progressives! Woo-hoo! Great Job Guys! Keep up the good work!
Now, does that mean that some SERIOUS parental ass-beatings are what these kids need, to put them back in their place? Well, it certainly would be a damned good place to start. Maybe if we can get other aspects of a child’s upbringing back on track, someday corporal punishment will have a smaller role in things. Maybe someday, when the society has returned to higher standards of conduct and decency, there will be more positive influences on kids, and less filth and vulgarity. I look forward to that day. But right now, The Most Worthless Generation is so far gone, that it’s going to take some DRASTIC measures to get things back on track, and we need to start with the basics. Step one would be parents simply drawing a line in the sand as to what is going to be tolerated and what isnt. At this level of crisis, parents need to start with that, and THEN , by all means, they should take all the time they need to patiently teach the reasoning behind the rules- just as long as the teaching takes place with the child obediently standing on the right side of that line in the sand.
“Cowed and broken obedience” – as you put it- is EXACTLY what is needed here. SOMEBODY needs to be supervisiing and disciplining these kids- we’ve seen what happens when the kids are allowed to do whatever they want- and that SOMEBODY is supposed to be the PARENT! Parents need to get control of these little bastards by any means neccesary! Obedience and respectful behavior is the primary consideration here, NOT self-esteem building! Start with the basics. Control the child’s behavior. If you can make them understand the reason WHY certain things are wrong, that’s great. But even if they don’t like the rules, or can’t understand WHY they have to behave a certain way, they still need to have limits placed on their behaviors. We simply cannot tolerate this as a civilized culture anymore. ENOUGH is ENOUGH!
Ty:
We are wandering all over so let me try to cut down the weeds a bit. It’s very easy on the subject of CP to sit and point fingers at the other side, ala one person shouts, “it is undisciplined kids who don’t get spanked that ruin our society”, to which the other side responds “no, it is the kids YOU beat half to death who grow up thinking violence is the answer!” This goes on so much that it has literally worn ruts in people’s brains. It’s easy and comfortable to launch into a rhetorical argument of the rhetorical statements typically made by the ‘other’ side of the debate. But I’ve got a different thought. The trouble with what you are saying is not that it is ‘wrong’ but that it is irrelevant to my point.
My observation (which I think you’ll agree with) is that most of your delinquent youth have parents who look at their kids as a nuisance which gets in the way of them doing what they want to do. Like college kids who refuse to clean up until trash is piled up ankle deep on the floor, these parents ignore the kid until its behavior becomes so obnoxious that it can no longer be ignored.
Many of these parents are so phenomenally lazy that rather than clean up the mess in their house, they open the doors and windows so a stray breeze can blow through and carry the trash away. They don’t care where it goes as long as it goes away. These are the parents you are primarily concerned with – those who do nothing to correct their kids, but instead let them roam the streets where they make a mess of the rest of community.
Now, let’s say that corporal punishment, metaphorically speaking, is a broom. You are proposing that we give brooms out to everyone. Your idea makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels. A broom is simple; it’s effective; it’s been used for hundreds of years. I don’t disagree.
The trouble is that the parents who are creating the mess don’t use a broom to sweep their trash into neat piles so they can pick it up and deal with it – they use it to sweep the trash out the front door into the street. A lazy parent, like a lazy janitor, can make pushing trash into the street with a broom look a bit like cleaning up, but his first motive in using the broom is not to create cleanliness and order but simply to be rid of an irritation as quickly as possible. Some of these characters have a little pride and enough brains to realize that being seen conspicuously pushing a broom around will bolster a claim that any trash that ended up in the street got there despite his best efforts, but most of the lazy ones don’t even bother pretending to sweep. They live in squalor and explain that they are not lazy, but simply afraid to clean since using a broom improperly could land them in jail.
So let’s introduce a sleek modern Swiffer. It picks up dirt instead of pushing it around. Some people love it, and use it to keep their floors spotless. Others prefer a broom and still get good results. But the lazy people who claim they can’t figure out how to properly use a broom claim that a Swiffer doesn’t work either. Big surprise! This doesn’t prove that the Swiffer is useless, nor does it prove that new laws have made it impossible to figure out how to use a broom properly. It proves that lazy people won’t clean no matter what tools you give them, and they will inevitably blame the tools for their failure.
I think that you confuse a lot of ideas together. For example ‘progressive’ you equate with ‘liberal’. Televangelism is progressive. Gay pride is liberal. If I say that I go to a progressive church you jump to the conclusion that we support gay marriage. To quote you – “Stop that!” I can’t respond to most of what you wrote since it would require me to defend a position that I never took nor hold to be true.
There is a problem here with terminology. When I talk about ‘progressive’ views of parenting I am not talking about what was new 30 or 40 years ago (what I consider ‘traditional’) but what is new today. A good example is bottle feeding, which was considered progressive a few decades ago, but has been replaced by the ‘progressive’ idea of breast feeding. Of course breastfeeding isn’t new, but what is new is parents who became parents deliberately, who approach the job enthusiastically, and who are able to learn from the past without repeating their parent’s mistakes. They make use of a wide range of parenting tools and strategies, taking into account new understandings about the developmental process, and about brain based learning. To suggest that there is a lack of supervision and structure among this group of parents who inspired the term ‘Hover-Mom’ and necessitated the writing of books with titles like “The Overscheduled Child” is just silly.
At the heart of all of this is the ‘new’ old idea that one might be happy without being wealthy; a value which ‘progressive’ parents live out when Mom takes a 20 year break from her career and Dad leaves his high-paying job in the city for a quieter life in the suburbs. It is also evident in the way they teach their children that success is not measured solely by a good report card and a high paying career after college.
I have often talked to inmates who are studying Islam or Buddhism, and I never discourage them. My thought is that God is so big that if you are honestly looking for him you will not fail to find him; on the other hand if you are only looking for a teacher to say what you want to hear then there is no point my arguing with you. This is the same way that I feel about parenting. If the will is there to raise good kids a parent will not wander far down a wrong path. Unfortunately some parents are looking for an excuse to do whatever they want, and they will find that too.
I can understand your frustration with the state of affairs, and I can follow your logic in saying that more corporal punishment would help. I just think that people like you who enjoyed a solid upbringing are just naïve about how stupid and lazy parents can really be and it makes you overly optimistic. Our pastor tried for five years to explain to my father how to spank me with a belt instead of abusing me. The only thing my Dad learned was some new bible verses to read to me while he beat me senseless. No one is ever going to teach a parent who lacks genuine concern for their child how to use corporal punishment effectively or in the way you experienced it growing up. The people who understand it don’t need to be told, and the people who don’t are never going to get it no matter how much you explain. Believe me, you can do NOTHING but harm by encouraging people who beat the children that they hate. At best it will do no good, and at worse it will turn a run of the mill thug into a serial killer.
I’ll buy the broom analogy. We appear to agree that the problem is the parents, although we appear to disagree as to whether they should be using a broom or a swiffer. We seem to agree that the larger problem is that the worthless enabler parents who created this mess-of-a-generation seem unwilling or unable to use the broom OR the swiffer. I think we agree that if there is no love in a parent’s heart for a child or good intentions behind their disciplinary actions, that neither the broom or the swiffer will have a good result.
Regarding the progressive/ liberal terminology, I agree that they are not properly the same thing, but there is currently a “re-branding” campaign underway by the american left to substitute the former in place of the latter because too many people associate liberals with failed policies and defunct ideology. “Progressive” sounds so much nicer, and that explains why I can find “Progressive Talk Radio” on my A.M dial ( which I derive great amusement from during Rush Limbaugh’s commercials on my lunch-hour ), but never can find any “Liberal Talk Radio” even though it’s the same people advocating for the same things.
Incidentally ,these self-styled “progressives” ( I’m not referring to you ) are actually some of the least “progressive” people I know, and I’ve gone into that at length in prior comments in this thread. I especially find most liberal’s opposition to parental school-choice and to vouchers to be appallingly regressive, given the obvious total failure of the status quo. I’m a conservative republican, and on matters of education and entitlement reform I’m much more progressive than almost any liberals I can think of.
So yes, I agree that the two terms are not synonomous- even if there is an effort underway by some to make them SEEM synonomous in the minds of our mush-brained electorate. But I guess that’s another argument.
I was anticipating that you would accuse me of exaggeration and hyperbole for my ” millions of feral children running the streets” comment/assertion, and I was preparing a barage of statistical smart-bombs to drop on your head , but apparently you are too smart to take the bait.
So I guess I will just thank you for an interesting debate and for sharing your unique perspective on these matters.
I think we do still disagree on our respective assesments of the state of the culture. I think it’s a much more serious situation than you do, and I see the societal scales you mentioned earlier tipping a lot more severely than you do, so I thought I’d just throw a few more disturbing factoids on the afformentioned scales to support my view of things if you don’t mind…
The recently-released “Top-10 Most Dangerous Gangs in Los Angeles List” makes for some horrifying reading….
According to the mayor, and the LAPD, there are 720 known gangs, and 40,000 known gang-members just in the L.A. metro area. 67% are under age 18 and 92% are male. These gang members accounted for 1,700 violent crimes in the LA metropolitan area last year, and that’s just the crimes that were actually reported. That figure doesnt include drug-related crimes, theft, or quality-of-life crimes such as graffiti and property damage which would be far, far too numerous to quantify.
Bearing these statistics in mind, can you now better envision the catastrophic scale of 40,000+ feral youths running the streets of just ONE city wreaking murder and mayhem? New York, Chicago, Baltimore, D.C, and Detroit arent any better. And I can tell you from personal experience, that the situation in Phoenix and Las Vegas is pretty bad too. And these are just the formally affiliated gang members. For every one of those, there are ten more out-of-control teenagers who arent affiliated but who share the same basic attitudes and values.
This is a crisis. It’s an unmitigated disaster.
These kids represent parental failure, cultural failure, and educational failure.
The parents need to get to sweeping, or swiffering or whatever the hell it is they need to do to control their children.
The culture is a moral cesspool and needs to be cleaned up.
America’s broken public school system is so far beyond being merely a complete and total miserable failure, that they should just padlock the doors, fire everybody, and send the tax dollars back to the parents in the form of vouchers so they can go and find private schools that will compete for their business. It’s time to establish standards of achievement and conduct again in the lives of these children.
And while you and I are arguing about brooms and swiffers, MS-13 is running around decapitating people with machetes.
In conclusion, as if I needed anything else to depress the living hell out of me, I ran across this lovely article on Drudge Report yesterday…
10,000 ( TEN THOUSAND ) students and other assorted dumb-asses gathered at the University of Colorado yesterday to celebrate 4/20 by smoking dope in public- in full view of police.
The University of Colorado- which is funded by MY tax dollars, and whose students are recieving financial aid taken directly out of MY hard-earned paycheck- did absolutely nothing to stop the yearly celebration of lawlessness and stupidity.
Boulder police did not make even ONE single arrest. Sigh…
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/apr/20/cus-420-pot-smoke-out-draws-10000/
Sometimes I feel like this country is so far gone that it’s almost a moot point. Sometimes I think I should just move to the forest, build a cabin, and whittle sticks while the country and the culture destroys itself and I don’t have to live in it.
Maybe I’d do that, but the fact is that I couldnt survive more than a week without the internet….( On that subject, If you havent seen this week’s episode of South Park- “Overlogging”- you should check it out. It deals with the phenomenon of internet addiction and is both funny and accurate in many respects. )
Have a good evening Beatkid
Ty:
I lost my right to vote three months after my 18th Birthday. Some time in 2009 I will have passed fifteen years with no new arrests and will be eligible to apply for executive clemency and have my voting rights restored. Being disenfranchised makes one an outsider in the political process and gives an odd perspective. I am aware of the existence of warring ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives’ mostly because they constantly accuse me of being the opposite of whatever they consider themselves. I don’t really know what they all stand for nor do I care.
I talk about issues that relate to children who are abused and neglected and to the incarcerated youth that result from severely dysfunctional families. I do it because I was one, and because none of the groups that are supposedly addressing the needs of people like me actually does one thing to represent my interests or to put forth a workable solution.
Whether you listen to conservative A.M. radio, or get your news from ‘liberal’ television 99% of what you hear on these subjects is irrelevant. Other than the statistics outlining the dimensions of the problem, everything that is being said is based on the imagination and conjecture of ‘experts’ who have never been within an hours drive of the problems they are discussing.
Neither the liberals nor the conservatives have the slightest practical understanding of what life is like for kids in severely dysfunctional families. It’s like they imagine that having lung cancer and slowly drowning as your lungs fill with fluid must be a bit like having a runny nose (the closest thing they have personally experienced). Then liberals and conservatives argue with each other about whether cancer is caused by not using an umbrella or by sleeping with no socks on, and whether one should starve a cold or feed it chicken soup and so on. Their analysis of the problem is laughably simplistic and the solutions they propose grossly inadequate. It would be comical except that while they are verbally jacking each other off the cancer is spreading.
When my mom would break the yolk on Dad’s eggs, he would beat her unconscious with the frying pan. He might just grab her by the hair and punch her in the face until she collapsed, and then continue abusing her unconscious body. He would snatch bloody clumps of hair off her head. I was the youngest, so he threatened to kill me if she tried to leave. I would be three or four years old, he would carry me around by the neck, choke me till I passed out, then slap me to revive me so I could beg my mother not to leave. I was held at gunpoint.
In first grade my mother left him for about a year. We slept in the car until we could afford to get a hotel room. The people at the womens shelter told my mom she had to fight back when he beat her up. She went back to him. From then on, when they fought she would get a weapon – a broom stick, a baseball bat, an iron – and defend herself. They would beat the shit out of each other, and sometimes it would go on for days. To avoid getting involved, at those times my brother and I slept in a tent in the woods, took baths in the lake, and went to school. We would sneak back to the house and, if it was quiet, go inside to forage around for food.
Is this a weird story? Not among my friends – the other delinquents of the neighborhood. Every night when the sun went down and kids started going home for the night there was me and my brother and four or five others left outside. Only one of my delinquent friends was not regularly beaten: He was raised by a single mom, Dad walked out never to be seen again, Mom was profoundly mentally ill and most nights too drunk by 5pm to even get to the bathroom. He would eat at my house or steal money from her purse and drive to the store to buy food. My other friend (best man at my wedding in fact) had parents who worked night shift – mom at the hospital and step dad as a night auditor for a hotel. If he woke his step dad up he would get punched in the face and thrown the stairs. I could go on, but what everyone on the street had in common was that they were not welcomed at home.
Hanging out in a parking lot is boring, and a lot of crimes are committed out of sheer boredom. That includes a lot of vandalism as well as burglaries and fighting, not to mention drugs. But drugs is a big subject. Again, instead of a hypothetical I’ll use an example from my childhood – something that happened not to me, but to a friend.
Say you came home to find your mom comatose, in a fetal position on the floor of the closet, with an empty fifth of vodka and an empty pill bottle on the floor next to her. So you call the ambulance for her and you split because if you hang around ‘they’ are going to take you to God knows where. So you go out to where the kids you know hang out, and you don’t know if your mom is alive or dead. Your so scared you want to fall down on the ground and curl up in a ball and cry your eyes out but you don’t even know how because no one has ever cared enough about you to listen to you. So you come out and your shaking like a leaf and your buddy can see you are hurting but he has no clue how to, say, talk to you as a friend, or put an arm around you to comfort you, because he never had any example of it. So instead he shoves a bottle of vodka and a cigarette at you, which is the best way he knows to deal with a life that is completely shitty and inescapable.
And you write that these kids need their rotten fucking parents to beat them more.
There is nothing in your experience or the experiences of Rush Limbaugh that can be used to extrapolate a solution to the problems that you are complaining about, because there is no parallel between your upbringing and mine. The thoughts you are regurgitating make sense to other people like you, and you think that makes it true. But what it really proves is that none of you have even the faintest notion of what is going on, especially not the ‘experts’ you are parroting. As your last post points out, this is a scary thought, and the best defense from feeling scared and helpless is denial.
As a twenty year old American youth, I am both guilty and aware of many of the issues you touched upon. The frog metaphor works perfectly IMO. It is quite disappointing to know that a country that was once so great, with so much pride and honor has evolved into the mess we have today.
I look at it this way, if a history book was written decades from now, it’s undeniable that my generation will be written off as the most useless and pathetic generation to ever burden this planet.
Distracted is the only way I can describe it. American youths don’t have any moral compass, or sense of priority. We are distracted by meaningless pursuits and topics, failing to see what is truly important.
I’ve always considered myself a patriot, but I for one have moved on. my loyalties have since moved on to greater causes. this country is beyond the point of no return, barring some dramatic revolution. I can only hope that in due time, whether it is during my lifetime or not, that the United States can return to its former greatness.
Geez, it’s at the point where even a youth such as myself can understand why we are looked at with disdain. We’ve earned this perception.
A. Kwon- It’s people like you that will lead this nation back to greatness someday. Not just through political choices, but by the conduct of your lives, and by how you raise your own childen. Sooner or later, your generation is gong to hit bottom and look around at the mess that they are trying to raise their kids in, and will decide to go another way. Please don’t give up on America. The things she was founded on are still true and always will be. Too many people gave up their lives for the good things this country once stood for, for us to let it all go without a fight. Remember, she never left us. We left her. And her promise of goodness and liberty will still be waiting for us when we get done with our disasterous period of social experimentaion and moral relativism. Moral clarity and God’s Own Truth don’t change just because our perception of these things got a little fuzzy along the way somehow. These things are absolute, not relative, and as such can never be totally destroyed. No matter how bad things get, there will always be places where grass is still green and the sun still shines, and the truth will always bear new fruit in it’s own time by people who still believe in it, like you.
Ty I’ve enjoyed reading your posts for some time now. And judging from some of the other comments I read I’m not alone. It’s reaffirming to know that not everyone in our shamefull society has lost all human decency.
I write my posts mostly to lighten the mood or ruffle tail feathers, as it were, but it’s also nice to read something simcere and thought provoking.
-Dustin
Greetings Dustin ( AKA “The Scourge”)-
I didn’t know you were lurking out there- keeping an eye on me for Legacy Partners? Ha, Ha. Thanks for the very un-deserved compliment. I really wish I had the time and energy to generate more content for my blog. I have a lot to say, but very little time and energy to say it with because I am always so tired after work. There’s a lot to be said for writing shorter, more concise posts more often, but I just don’t seem to be able to operate that way. As a result, I just sit down and let fly with one of my 10,000 word manifestos every few months – usually over a 3-day weekend.
I am doing side work installing air-conditioners on some of my weekends now, so a couple of posts that I really wanted to work on have been put off, which irritates me.
I still laugh when I think of your post on global warming and drilling for oil in ANWAR- generated in about ten minutes as I recall. What is the actual web adress for your blog? I typed a few variations of joels opinions but couldnt seem to find it.
These days, most of my posting is done in the comment sections of Breitbart articles linked to Drudge Report. Almost every day I peruse the Drudge Report at lunch and pick one or two of the Breitbart articles to toss out a few quick snotty comments before I go back to work. ( There is a group of regular commenters that I like to interact / exchange insults with in the Breitbart comment sections who also link to the articles via drudge- “So Cal Patriot”, “SF Progressive” etc. etc.). Stop by the comment sections and weigh in sometime- I’m there almost every day. I could use the backup, as I’m usually outnumbered 5 to 1.
Here’s a couple of links to Breitbart articles that I got into the comment sections of in the last week or so…
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D910TUN80
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080519104151.k48mg4st
http://comments.breitbart.com/d90h1cmg0/?commentspage=1
http://comments.breitbart.com/d90q5mt80/?commentspage=3
You can link to many breitbart articles from here:
http://www.drudgereport.com
I hope all is well in your life Big D. Give me a ring sometime and we will exchange war-stories. I’m doing much better than I was last time I saw you. I work harder at my job here, but I make more money and I have a LOT less stress. The only bad part is the climate- it was 102 degrees here today, which is straight-up killing me. Ah, how I pine for the good-old days when it was 20 degrees and we were up at 5AM shoveling 3 feet of snow for those ungrateful bastards…
My latest tinkering project is a swamp-cooler hat that will run off Ryobi 18V drill batteries. I am looking for a pith helmet tomorrow to act as the framework, and I hope to initiate some bench-tests soon with small direct current motors to see how long I could theoretically get this thing to run. I figure it can’t work out any worse than my Ranque Hilsch Vortex tube did…My plan is to walk around like Lord Helmet from SpaceBalls in my own artificially-generated bubble of air-conditioned comfort while the people around me suffer and sweat like pigs.
“What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherant response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.”
Good afternoon Ty. I’ve read this entire essay; but I haven’t the time at this moment to read all of the comments. I usually do not read comments, but I thought reading the comments would show me views of and explanations of those who do not have your views. I must say, that although you seem a bit radical in your views, I do not perceive you as being racist in this post. I do feel that you are anti islamic, based on fundamental islamics whose views are, in my opinion, reflect extreme hatred, racism, and disregard for the human spirit. But, this in no way means that I feel the same about all Islamic. I feel the same about the KKK, but, again, I don’t feel the same way about all southern baptist, god fearing, white americans. I agree in your assessment of this generation; and I will be the first to admit, when me and my family and peers get together and talk about this generation, we really are at a lost for words or comprehension. Me and my sister were speaking just yesterday on how this generation has no value for human life, not even their own life. I live in a city that is crime ridden; I live in the hood. I see the disrespect, the lowered expectations, the fuc…. you attitude, the not talking to the police; not always out of fear; but out of pure stupidy in not being labeled a snitch. I know that if some of my brothers and sisters in the hood knew that I wrote this and “aired dirty laundry” as they say, the whole matter would be taken completely out of context, and I would be “siding with the white man.” The ability for this generation to see real from fiction, to use good common sense astounds me each day. If I don’t like loud bumping music, why should have to listen to it night and day in order that another’s rights are not violated. Are my rights not violated by having to listen to such bull. If I attempt to talk to the youth about turning the music down, I’m treated for my life or that my house will be burned down. I’ve had it happen on more occasions than I remember. Do the police do anything about these things, Hell no. Of course they will come out if someone gets killed; but to keep things down, they need to come out before it gets out of hand or should I take it in my own hands. I teach my children respect for self and respect for others. They are very respectable young adults, especially in light of the peer pressure for which they face each day. I allow my 15 year old to listen to rap, with ear phones on. But, he understands that it’s music, it’s not the life he inspires to have or stay in. He reads advanced books, has a keen interest in sciene and math; and in fact would rather explain some form of physics to me than to listen endlessly to rap music. I do not allow him to walk around with pants hung low; and explained that any girl who allows a man to walk around with his a… showing without speaking of it in the negative has serious problems with accepting anything. Who wants someone who accepts and as.. . hole (man who shows as…) and gladly – dime a dozen. Anywho enough on the children thing, because I’m just one small family in a community of thousands. I dont’ know if the answer lies in returning to the times of old; but I do know that basic and respect for self and others have somehow been lost by this generation; along with good old fashion common sense. Why, I really do not have all the answers, but I have a few. I will make it a point to post these ideas sometime this week on my blog . . so stay tuned. In the mean time, if you have not read this on my blog, I’d like to share it with you here.
Sunday Afternoons After Church ~By CordieB
Oh how I miss the days of old . . .
When family unity was the goal
Of every bright or weary soul
Oh how I miss the lost tradition
When helping hands was the mission
When we knew all our neighbor’s names
When we’d speak to all who peacefully came
walking down the clean sidewalks
stopping for friendly gossip and small talk
When neighbors would watch over the young
and everyone knew every one
when neighbors could spank that ass
for talking smart or acting fast
and then I’d get another one
after the neighbor told my dad or mom
When children still played hide and seek
When strong families always helped the weak
When unity meant what it should
and not simply another cliche’ buzz word
When fathers could not abandon theirs
without humilitation, points and stares
and of course lots and lots of old folk’s prayers
When the corner store owner lived in the neighborhood
and there was no such thing as “living in the hood”
And people usually acted like they knew they should
The Sunday afternoons after church dismissed
When family and neigbors gathered to reminice
And laugh and cry and love each other
and every one was treated like a sister or brother
I miss it all, but alas life goes on
So at least I’ll carry the tradition on
So if you miss those days, come visit soon
My home on Sunday Afternoons
~Written By CordieB
As always, Peace!
Ty, I am a member of this worthless generation, and I have to say, while i agree with you on some points (mainly education), I disagree with your basic view of our culture. I don’t know how old you are but you seem to be pretty intolerant of younger people. For some one who advocates logic and objectivity, you stereotyped and slandered your way through this entire essay with not a single citation and an absence of a reference page. So I have no choice but to tell you that nothing in this article can be taken seriously or given any value. This is just another ranting about a generation that is not understood and clearly there is a subjective bias throughout. I struggled to get past the first few paragraphs. The stereotyping of our generation in the bookstore was not only insulting but inaccurate. How do you know most of us act that way? How can you know that? Don’t you dare claim logical superiority over me or anyone else without talking to them first. This is intellectually dishonest. And don’t you ever label us as a worthless generation. We are still young, let history decide that. If you are older you will be dead long before our impression is felt on the world.
“Ty, I am now going to do some stereotyping of my own. I see you as one of two people. You are either the old guy who is struggling to keep up with the changing culture. And by default is trying to resist it. Or you are a younger kid who hates his peers and is a social outcast. You must fit into one of these categories, I see no other way”
Whether I’m right or wrong about the above paragraph is irrelevant. I have no right to throw you into categories like that. And I definitely have no right to inductively label your generation as such. This is exactly what you did in your essay. The backbone of your evidence is personal experience. You therefore have no evidence. You therefore have no argument (this is proper inductive reasoning). Do you see my point?
OK… and why would first-hand experience not be evidence? If I see something right in front of my face with my own two eyes every day, then that thing is called OBJECTIVE REALITY. Why should I not form opinions based on what I see in front of me, especially when what I see repeats itself over and over again?
Your insistence that I need to talk to these people before I judge them implies that wrong behavior and poor manners cease to become such if you can only find a means to rationalize them- which is a flawed argumentative premis. As I pointed out in the essay, this is part of your generation’s problem- you think everything is relative and is just a matter of a point of view. It isn’t. There is such a thing as actual right and wrong, and spinning it with words doesnt change it.
Let me give you a great example- this totally unnacceptable bullshit with the loud bass EVERYWHERE I GO! It seems like every time I pull up to a stoplight I have some unnaccountable jackass parked next to me pounding me and my vehicle with his stupid bass thumping so loud that you can hear him a city block away. I literally see this EVERY SINGLE DAY- people driving all over the city thumping away showing utter, total, and complete contempt and disrespect for the people around them and pissing all over the rights of decent people to have some peace and quiet in their homes, and to go about their lives without feeling like they have their head inside a 45 gallon drum with somebody beating on it with a 2X4. You have to listen to these assholes at every stoplight, at every carwash, in every apartment complex, and on every major thoroughfare in every neighborhood with predictable regularity.
Now, you may ask- do I understand with certainty the complex sociological reasons why these assholes came to be assholes? Well…, no. I am not all-seeing and all-knowing. But my ears seem to work fine, and I think it’s fair and reasonable to say that changes in how children are raised now and changes in the morality and manners of the culture they were raised-in have a lot to do with these people’s behavior and lack of respect. If a strong, moral, male-figure in the home had whipped the living tar out of these people the first time they had been caught doing this as a teenager, and said male-figure had explained to them the importance of respect for others, I think it’s fair to say that loud bass would be less of a problem today. Is it such a wild and off-the-wall assertion to make?
In my essay I detailed some of these societal and familial changes and pointed out the obvious connections to behavior in the current generation. A lot of these changes are objective facts, not just my own subjective opinions. Test scores, graduation rates, crime statistics, and out of wedlock births are not opinions, they are reality! Do you question that the media content to which we are exposed today- as children and as adults- on television and in the culture at-large is much more harmful and ammoral than it was 50 years ago? Or do you claim that it has no detrimental effect on the people who grow up now immersed in it? Either assertion seems unsupportable. And if you dispute neither of these assertions, then I guess my essay makes a good point about the state of the culture, then doesn’t it?
As for your point about not judging people that I clearly havent taken the time to understand better-
Have I done extensive research into how disrespectful assholes justify their behavior in their own minds? I must admit, that I have not, but I pledge to work on this if you think it will help me become more enlightened. I HAVE asked a couple of these bass thumpers what on earth they could be POSSIBLY be thinking when I can no longer just ignore it anymore at 2AM. But that line of enquiry has never really ever borne much useful information and I tend to get doors slammed in my face. I DID once ask some guy in my apartment complex who was blasting all 350 residents with his bass while we were emptying our trash together at the dumpster whether his choice to engage in this behavior resulted from a sociopathic lack of conscern for others, or whether he was simply unaware of what he was doing because he wasnt thinking. That was about as useful as asking a gorilla at the zoo his opinion on the prospects for the Large Hadron Collider next year whenthey solve the coolant problem. The “Fuck You Asshole” that I got for my trouble in conducting this research didnt really seem to justify the effort in the future.
But for YOU, I will make an effort to learn more with direct enquiries about the mental pathways that exist inside the heads of disrespectful assholes that cause them to act the way they do.
I am bombarded by somebody’s loud bass almost every single day as I wait at the corner of I-17 and Northern here in Phoenix while I wait for the long light to change. It seems like an excellent opportunity for some feild research.Tell you what- I’ll get out and knock on a few people’s black tinted windows and conduct some interviews for you and get back to you with the results.
By the way, do you have a bulletproof vest and helmet I can borrow?
And for the record, I am not struggling to “keep up with the changing culture”. I REJECT the changes for the worse in the culture it and refuse to go along with these trends. Big difference right?
Oh… and I almost forgot- some ridiculous buffoon passed me on the sidewalk the other day at the apartment complex where I work while sporting a sagging pants style. His pants were literally pulled down to his hamstrings- his underwear was ENTIRELY exposed, and he held his pants up from falling down completely by walking with his hand LITERALLY grabbing his crotch/ genetalia as he walked. His shirt was off, and not-suprisingly, he was on his way back to apt. 1052 where they smoke pot all day, and the cops are called out every other night because of the loud music and bass being played by him and his late-teen/early-twenty-something buddies. Question for you- if you feel I judge your generation unfairly, then why do the demographic correlations line up about 100% of the time on these types of residents? We NEVER have this trouble with the old folks- nor did they act that way when they were that age, and every time we have a new bunch of young residents move-in, why is it that you can almost always predict the many ways in which they will conduct themselves with disrespect for other people? Not all of them of course, but the asshole percentage per-capita by age group is totally predictable. I do have a unique opportunity at my job to observe the Greatest Generation and the Most Worthless Generation side-by-side in direct comparison, and the comparison is CLEARLY not favorable to the group you mistakenly choose to defend.
Asalam,
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Wasalam. And thank’s a lot.
I totally agree with your point of view on this new ‘internet generation’. They are worthless and brainwashed, so when the New World Order comes to take everything and enslave Americans, they will embrace it like some new fashion trend! <<>>
hey fuck head, if you’re in your thirties, you ARE the most worthless generation, the least qualified ans the most soft, fuck you, I’m 25 and I deserve every cent you’ve made you worthless fuck
“I deserve every cent you’ve made”… Well, at least you are honest about your expectations and your intentions. I’ll give you that much.
I started earning the money to which you are entitled when I was in the 4th grade. I , and a fellow classmate, formed “H and H leaf service”. We made a meager profit raking people’s yards, which at least paid for my comic books and candy-bars at the time and it was honestly earned. I have been working ever since. I remember those summers throwing gravel with a shovel in the basements of new houses, laying foundations for my uncle charlie’s construction business when I was 16. When I was 18, I once worked almost 60 hours of overtime in one week at the 3rd busiest pizza hut in America. In my mid-twenties, I remember brazing-in refrigerant lines in 140 degree attics in the Las Vegas summers. I have been getting up every morning and heading off to work at some job or another for almost 30 years now. I cant remember a time when I didnt work. My long and hard efforts havent earned me lifestyles of the rich-and-famous persay, but they keep a roof over my head and provide for my needs. I could literally qualify for full disability tomorrow with all the things I have wrong with me. My Back is shot. My knees are shot. My shoulder is shot. My hip is shot. I could sit down very easily and leech off the few remaining people who still work for a living and actually pay taxes. But I don’t. Because I dont want to be dependant on somebody else, and because SOMEBODY still has to pull the wagon that so many are riding on. The golden goose has to keep laying the eggs or the whole system is gonna go down. I am not sure why mr. Vladivostock thinks he is entitled to every cent I have ever earned, because after all, it was MY labor that earned that money, but I guess the truth is I don’t care why. At some point, the victim of an armed-robbery has to set aside questions about why they are being robbed and simply fight back. I , and people like me, are carrying half the country now- carrying those who pay no taxes and/or recieve a benefit check of some sort every month courtesy of my tax dollars. I am paying for tens of millions of folks to sit on their fat, lazy asses and watch springer each day, collect welfare, unemployment, WIC, Section 8 housing, free healthcare, and free education while I am out toiling. And the thanks I get is a kind note from mr. Vladivostock calling me a fuck-head, and informing me that he is entitled to every cent I’ve ever made. OK, mr. Vladivostock. Your message has been recieved loud and clear. Thank you for your clarity and honesty. My response, and the response of people like me, is the Tea Party. It’s not a fad, and it’s not the fringe, despite what you may have heard. It’s not going away. The drum and fife of revolution is getting louder, and the working people out there in flyover country are flipping you the bird right-back Vlad. The Tea Party is a growing righteous anger in the beating heart of the nation. You might want to remember that here are 536 people in this country who currently enable you to take what is mine and repay me by calling me a fuck-head. In 2010 we threw a third of them out of office. I Can’t wait until 2012 to remove another third. It’s been a pleasure making your aquaintance , sir. Thanks for stopping by my blog and have a nice day.